Who’s in charge?
A Collegian inquiry into an alcohol-related incident involving the Delta Zeta sorority found that the group did not inform its faculty adviser of its subsequent investigation.
The inquiry has raised questions about what goes on the record for the university and what goes unreported. According to Fresno State’s Greek adviser, the university does not require fraternities and sororities to report every occurrence.
The incident in question involving the Delta Zeta sorority was a result of drunkenness at a fraternity party in early September.
The investigation, conducted by internal advisers of Delta Zeta, involved interviewing sorority members who were present at the time of the incident. The investigation has since been concluded, according to Delta Zeta.
However, Dan Carrion, a theatre arts professor and Delta Zeta’s faculty adviser, did not know about the incident and its investigation until he was informed of it Friday by The Collegian.
Delta Zeta members at the sorority’s booth, located in the Free Speech Area, declined to give interviews last Wednesday and directed all questions to Melissa Littlewood, the group’s recruitment adviser. According to Carrion, Littlewood is a community volunteer and a former Delta Zeta who is available to give members advice.
Littlewood said Thursday the results of the investigation would be determined by Delta Zeta.
Delta Zeta was established locally in 1928 and is the oldest sorority on campus.
Littlewood said she and Sandy Hall, the regional collegiate coordinator for Delta Zeta, were conducting the internal investigation. At the time, Littlewood did not give an estimate of how long the investigation would last and said it would take “as long as necessary.”
“It depends on the severity,” Littlewood said Thursday. “There’s no timeline.”
Questions involving the investigation process and its procedures were then directed to Hall.
Hall, who is not affiliated with the university, said Monday she would not discuss the investigation and would not confirm who was involved in the procedure.
“That’s an internal process,” Hall said.
Hall said Delta Zeta has a judicial process for investigations, but this incident “didn’t fall under that [process].” Hall would not give an example of a situation that would call for such a procedure, adding that “too many variables are involved.”
Hall said a more in-depth investigation would involve more than just chapter officers and board members and “if necessary, could go up to national officers.” Hall said she is considered part of the national organization, as she reports to a national council member.
“We don’t keep anything secret,” Hall said.
Hall said Monday that she has not met Carrion and that Delta Zeta didn’t inform the faculty adviser.
“I didn’t feel like it was necessary. There wasn’t a need to address anyone else on campus,” Hall said.
Hall said all members of Delta Zeta are required to complete AlcoholEdu, an online program that includes a series of quizzes about alcohol and its effects on the mind and body.
According to the Web site for Frostburg State University in Maryland, the AlcoholEdu course “will help empower students … to make well-informed decisions about your own use of alcohol, as well as cope with the drinking behaviors of peers and friends.” The site also said the course takes approximately two to three hours to complete.
“We monitor to make sure they’ve done it,” Hall said. “It’s a pretty extensive program.”
Carrion said after meeting with Delta Zeta members Monday evening, members told him that the incident apparently did not involve anyone in the sorority. Rather, members told Carrion that it was the friend of a potential member who tagged along with her at a Delta Zeta event.
Carrion said Monday night the sorority told him the following occurred:
• Delta Zeta had “a couple of empty spots left.”
• A Delta Zeta potential and her friend came to an event held by the sorority. The potential and her friend left to go to a fraternity party.
• After the sorority event ended, more Delta Zeta sisters went to the party. There, they found the potential’s friend intoxicated.
• The sisters didn’t want to leave the potential’s friend, so they took her back to the Delta Zeta house, where they cared for her. The sisters told Carrion they had never met the potential’s friend before.
• They notified the sorority’s president, Joann Mercado, of the situation and that the girl was sick. Mercado apparently called Littlewood to let her know about the situation.
Two messages to Mercado were not returned.
Carrion also said that no one in the sorority was drinking with the girl, according to members he spoke with Monday night.
“I don’t think they were lying to me at all,” Carrion said.
Laura Williams, Fresno State’s Greek adviser, said notifying the university of internal investigations is not always necessary.
“If a chapter is holding a member accountable, that’s an internal process for them,” Williams said. “I don’t always know if a chapter is internally holding members accountable.”
But if a report is filed by a police department, Williams will know about the situation. If a fraternity or sorority is mentioned at all in a University Police Department report, a copy is sent to Williams.
Williams said she always contacts the president of the organization if that occurs.
However, if an incident is reported by the Fresno Police Department, for example, the campus police department does not automatically receive those reports, according to Amy Armstrong, the public information officer for the University Police Department. But the department can request reports.
Williams said an example of a police call would be when police are called to remove a “rowdy” individual from a fraternity house attempting to get free beer from the residence and who may have got aggressive after the person was asked to leave.
The Fresno Police Department will often let Williams know if it has a report involving a fraternity or sorority.
“By something being reported to me, the university has knowledge of it,” Williams said.
Some chapters’ national policies may require notification of certain advisers—be it alumni or faculty—of internal investigations.
“Usually, it’s somewhat predicated in their constitution,” Williams said.
But the chapters are “not forced by the university” to inform Williams of any internal investigations.
If it’s a conduct issue, based on the chapter’s polices, the alumni adviser often has to report to its regional or national authority.
Williams, who became Greek adviser in June 2006, said one of her roles is to act as a liaison between the university and Greek life.
“As Greek adviser, one of my major roles is to be an advocate of Greek life,” Williams said, “to help them by providing resources … help interpret policies.”
Williams said about two to three times each month, she has a conversation with a fraternity or sorority member. Usually, a chapter president will initiate the discussion with Williams, and it typically involves alcohol-related concerns for a member of the group. Sometimes, Williams may even start the conversation with a chapter president.
Williams described the 39-chapter Greek system as taking the “stool approach,” with the chapter as the seat of the chair and each leg as a different resource for its members — its alumni, national advisers and the university.
“Unlike other students, they have more of a support network,” Williams said.
But the question of informing faculty advisers of internal chapter issues, Williams said, has “a somewhat murky answer.” It depends on what kind of relationship the chapter has with its adviser and how severe the situation is.
When internal investigations are conducted by a chapter, Williams said the group can decide whether or not to inform the faculty adviser, depending on what leg of the stool the chapter feels most comfortable addressing the problem to.
She said “a large number of faculty/staff advisers” are very involved with their fraternities/sororities. “I think it depends on the chapter,” Williams said. “I think some of that is up to how much they [advisers] want to be involved.”
However, Williams said if a situation is bigger, the university can hold the chapter accountable, and the fraternity or sorority can then be sanctioned by the university.
If actions by the university are taken, the campus will always inform the national organization and its alumni.
But regarding alcohol-related incidents and conduct issues involving the university’s fraternities and sororities, Williams said, “Of late, it’s been non-Greek or non-Fresno State students.”
“Yes, they still have things to learn and they are working on that,” Williams said. “We don’t think Greeks are perfect.”
Further discussion can be found here:
http://collegian.csufresno.edu/2007/09/28/whos-in-charge-explained/
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Dear Interested Old soul,
I know you may be trying to make a liable argument, but the comment that you made about Danny Daniels is just uncalled for. Did you know him or the reason for why he did anything that he did? Please don’t bring up a very touching subject if you have no idea what you are talking about. Using a death of another individual is no way to win an argument, and is very immature.
Thank you
Dear Interested Old soul,
I know you may be trying to make a liable argument, but the comment that you made about Danny Daniels is just uncalled for. Did you know him or the reason for why he did anything that he did? Please don’t bring up a very touching subject if you have no idea what you are talking about. Using a death of another individual is no way to win an argument, and is very immature.
Thank you
You’re low,
I think the Danny Daniels matter is highly material to the topic at hand. That case was the height of Greek irresponsibility on this campus—–that and the Sigma Nu sexual assault of 2003 (or was it ’02). The lack of oversight should be a real concern. That poor gentleman had no business living in the house as he was not a fraternity member and not an active student. It is a very appropriate issue in the present matter. Not immature or simply used as a way to “win an argument” as you would point out.
You’re low,
I think the Danny Daniels matter is highly material to the topic at hand. That case was the height of Greek irresponsibility on this campus—–that and the Sigma Nu sexual assault of 2003 (or was it ’02). The lack of oversight should be a real concern. That poor gentleman had no business living in the house as he was not a fraternity member and not an active student. It is a very appropriate issue in the present matter. Not immature or simply used as a way to “win an argument” as you would point out.
Dear you’re low:,
Since when is the death of a human being a source of winning anything? Ms Garcia’s article as most have missed is not about bashing the system. I have not seen a negative comment about the clubs as a whole. The article was about holding those who would have a negative impact on these clubs be made to be held accountable in some way. Being in a club which as most of you point out has many benefits and serves the community and the university. Why the members of these clubs would want those who would bring them down not held accountable is beyond me. I do question the statement from this particular house about this stranger who was accompanied by a potential pledge got intoxicated and was taken care of by the house. What happened to the potential pledge?Did she disappear? Perhaps Ms Garcia’s article could have had the positive PR that most of you want if someone from that house would have had a comment. Seems something is amiss when you don’t want to comment on it. STILL OLD STILL SMART AND STILL CONCERNED
Dear you’re low:,
Since when is the death of a human being a source of winning anything? Ms Garcia’s article as most have missed is not about bashing the system. I have not seen a negative comment about the clubs as a whole. The article was about holding those who would have a negative impact on these clubs be made to be held accountable in some way. Being in a club which as most of you point out has many benefits and serves the community and the university. Why the members of these clubs would want those who would bring them down not held accountable is beyond me. I do question the statement from this particular house about this stranger who was accompanied by a potential pledge got intoxicated and was taken care of by the house. What happened to the potential pledge?Did she disappear? Perhaps Ms Garcia’s article could have had the positive PR that most of you want if someone from that house would have had a comment. Seems something is amiss when you don’t want to comment on it. STILL OLD STILL SMART AND STILL CONCERNED
Mr. Baxter; before you edited your post, you put “Mackee– for one only mustered the fortitude after a number of posts” You have since changed it but just know that I never put a fake name and I never hid from anything. I was uninformed that you are ultimate judge of what is clever, and I find that ironic coming from someone who constantly writes articles that the majority of students think is very pretentious and not funny at all. I did not want to get too personal but you have made it that way.
I knew Danny Daniels personally and I was with him the night that he died. Danny was a VERY troubled soul with a lot of issues that he chose to handle with alcohol. I will never forget when at one point during that night he looked at me and said “Mackee, I have mixed about 5 different alcohols into this shot glass, take it with me” I immediately poured out the shot glass and grabbed him and took him aside and asked him what was wrong, he informed me about GIRL PROBLEMS and how, after everything else that had happened to him in the past year, this was the worst. I told him to not drink anymore because that is not the way to handle it. Danny told me that I just did not understand and the rest of the night I was continuously taking drinks away from him. At the end of the night as I was leaving, i saw him as he walked the girl to her car. She was going back to school the next day. I saw him watch her drive away and then look back at me in tears, saying “Why does this always happen to me?” I gave him a hug and told him to go to bed, everything is going to be alright, and we will talk about it the next day. The next day never came, because Danny Daniels drank himself to death.
Danny Daniels committed suicide, to try and blame the brothers of FIJI for helping out a homeless kid is not right, and moreover do not try and compare the events with Delta Zeta to this.
The argument that situations like this are handled poorly is a horrible.
To reiterate what all the Greeks have been saying, if you are not a Greek you only have an assumption of how things are supposed to work, you do not have to report instances like what happened at Delta Zeta to your advisor they do not have to know everything that goes on. So, according to the incident that happened at Delta Zeta, how where they not held accountable and what actions should have been taken?
GM, you are concerned with the laws not being clear, well no laws are clear, that is why we have a supreme court and, on a smaller scale, judiciary boards for the Greek councils.
And even if the story raises the question about Greeks being held accountable, the instance used to raise the question is a horrible one to use and if it such a big concern, why was there not a better case?
Mr. Baxter, just because it does not explicitly say that all Greeks drink and that Greeks are doing bad things and they need to be checked, I think it is safe to say due to the large response among students and on this board that it was definitely implied and the Collegian needs to be responsible.
On a side note I find it funny that even the informed few who have a clear understanding what this “article” (haha funny, funny) is about all have come to different conclusions.
One last thing; gm, you write (i will copy paste to make sure I get it right) “So I ask again, would the sky have fallen if the adviser had been notified?”
You are right the sky would not have fallen, but I have a question for you, reading all of the comments from those of us who actually participate in Greek life, do you think it was necessary, and if they did inform there advisor what would be different right now other then the fact that we would all have the time that we have spent reading the article and defending ourselves back?
Mr. Baxter; before you edited your post, you put “Mackee– for one only mustered the fortitude after a number of posts” You have since changed it but just know that I never put a fake name and I never hid from anything. I was uninformed that you are ultimate judge of what is clever, and I find that ironic coming from someone who constantly writes articles that the majority of students think is very pretentious and not funny at all. I did not want to get too personal but you have made it that way.
I knew Danny Daniels personally and I was with him the night that he died. Danny was a VERY troubled soul with a lot of issues that he chose to handle with alcohol. I will never forget when at one point during that night he looked at me and said “Mackee, I have mixed about 5 different alcohols into this shot glass, take it with me” I immediately poured out the shot glass and grabbed him and took him aside and asked him what was wrong, he informed me about GIRL PROBLEMS and how, after everything else that had happened to him in the past year, this was the worst. I told him to not drink anymore because that is not the way to handle it. Danny told me that I just did not understand and the rest of the night I was continuously taking drinks away from him. At the end of the night as I was leaving, i saw him as he walked the girl to her car. She was going back to school the next day. I saw him watch her drive away and then look back at me in tears, saying “Why does this always happen to me?” I gave him a hug and told him to go to bed, everything is going to be alright, and we will talk about it the next day. The next day never came, because Danny Daniels drank himself to death.
Danny Daniels committed suicide, to try and blame the brothers of FIJI for helping out a homeless kid is not right, and moreover do not try and compare the events with Delta Zeta to this.
The argument that situations like this are handled poorly is a horrible.
To reiterate what all the Greeks have been saying, if you are not a Greek you only have an assumption of how things are supposed to work, you do not have to report instances like what happened at Delta Zeta to your advisor they do not have to know everything that goes on. So, according to the incident that happened at Delta Zeta, how where they not held accountable and what actions should have been taken?
GM, you are concerned with the laws not being clear, well no laws are clear, that is why we have a supreme court and, on a smaller scale, judiciary boards for the Greek councils.
And even if the story raises the question about Greeks being held accountable, the instance used to raise the question is a horrible one to use and if it such a big concern, why was there not a better case?
Mr. Baxter, just because it does not explicitly say that all Greeks drink and that Greeks are doing bad things and they need to be checked, I think it is safe to say due to the large response among students and on this board that it was definitely implied and the Collegian needs to be responsible.
On a side note I find it funny that even the informed few who have a clear understanding what this “article” (haha funny, funny) is about all have come to different conclusions.
One last thing; gm, you write (i will copy paste to make sure I get it right) “So I ask again, would the sky have fallen if the adviser had been notified?”
You are right the sky would not have fallen, but I have a question for you, reading all of the comments from those of us who actually participate in Greek life, do you think it was necessary, and if they did inform there advisor what would be different right now other then the fact that we would all have the time that we have spent reading the article and defending ourselves back?
Hey Baxter….
Erika
Erika Gutierrez
Thats my name!
want my address too?
No, I was not hiding behind a nickname, I just did not want to be affiliated with the sorority I was in. I don’t want what I said to be a representation of them. They are my thoughts and mine only.
What, do you want to come hunt me down now?!?!?!
hahahahahaha you’re a joke
So did knowing my name make you feel better. Aw good!
And by the way to the others: Greeks are writing about this so much because it has to do with us. How does it in any way effect you? Besides the fact that it gives you 20 minutes of something to do. SAD.
Hey Baxter….
Erika
Erika Gutierrez
Thats my name!
want my address too?
No, I was not hiding behind a nickname, I just did not want to be affiliated with the sorority I was in. I don’t want what I said to be a representation of them. They are my thoughts and mine only.
What, do you want to come hunt me down now?!?!?!
hahahahahaha you’re a joke
So did knowing my name make you feel better. Aw good!
And by the way to the others: Greeks are writing about this so much because it has to do with us. How does it in any way effect you? Besides the fact that it gives you 20 minutes of something to do. SAD.
Mr. Mackee M. Mason, ASI Senator-At-Large, I had no idea that you were the ultimate judge of what most students think about The Collegian’s content, or the larger body of my writing. I’ll tell that to the next stranger from whom I receive a compliment.
I’m flattered that you caught my comment before I edited it out. I felt it was too low a blow to keep there, but if you insist you can hold on to it, anyway.
Since you seem to personally know a lot about Daniels the night before he died, the night spent at the FIJI house, maybe you’d know something about how he got that alcohol. Do you?
If you can’t remember what FIJI’s official version of the story was, feel free to check The Collegian’s archives.
“…do you think it was necessary…”
Yes. Any questions?
“…and if they did inform there [sic] advisor [sic] what would be different right now other then [sic] the fact that we would all have the time that we have [sic] spent reading the article and defending ourselves back?[sic]”
The players, and not the script.
Mr. Mackee M. Mason, ASI Senator-At-Large, I had no idea that you were the ultimate judge of what most students think about The Collegian’s content, or the larger body of my writing. I’ll tell that to the next stranger from whom I receive a compliment.
I’m flattered that you caught my comment before I edited it out. I felt it was too low a blow to keep there, but if you insist you can hold on to it, anyway.
Since you seem to personally know a lot about Daniels the night before he died, the night spent at the FIJI house, maybe you’d know something about how he got that alcohol. Do you?
If you can’t remember what FIJI’s official version of the story was, feel free to check The Collegian’s archives.
“…do you think it was necessary…”
Yes. Any questions?
“…and if they did inform there [sic] advisor [sic] what would be different right now other then [sic] the fact that we would all have the time that we have [sic] spent reading the article and defending ourselves back?[sic]”
The players, and not the script.
Good job, Ms. Gutierrez. Here’s a gold star.
Online forums have the distinct weakness that everyone who writes anonymously somehow ends up with balls of brass.
Using your name, or even something that looks like a name, gives you some amount of credibility.
Exceptions: whoever posts as Lance Ito, Ralph Macchio, etc. is just another brass-balled anonymous poster, unless the first O.J. trial’s judge and the Karate Kid actor have an interest in Fresno State.
Good job, Ms. Gutierrez. Here’s a gold star.
Online forums have the distinct weakness that everyone who writes anonymously somehow ends up with balls of brass.
Using your name, or even something that looks like a name, gives you some amount of credibility.
Exceptions: whoever posts as Lance Ito, Ralph Macchio, etc. is just another brass-balled anonymous poster, unless the first O.J. trial’s judge and the Karate Kid actor have an interest in Fresno State.
Good job, Ms. Gutierrez. Here’s your gold star.
Everyone who posts anonymously online — in any forum — ends up with balls of brass somehow, so posting your real name and a verifiable e-mail address lends you an air of credibility.
That’s just how it works — I don’t make the rules.
How does it affect me? I’ll just leave it at this: even surreptitious underage drinking is damaging to the university’s name. There’s enough skepticism about the “7 out of 10″ propoganda already.
Good job, Ms. Gutierrez. Here’s your gold star.
Everyone who posts anonymously online — in any forum — ends up with balls of brass somehow, so posting your real name and a verifiable e-mail address lends you an air of credibility.
That’s just how it works — I don’t make the rules.
How does it affect me? I’ll just leave it at this: even surreptitious underage drinking is damaging to the university’s name. There’s enough skepticism about the “7 out of 10″ propoganda already.
It’s funny how even though something is in quotes and attributed to someone else, it still seems to be the author and the paper she works for saying it.
Huh?
Did they change the rules of writing on me?
I could have sworn that everything presented in this story was from the words of others, and their names and greek affiliations are clearly labled.
It’s funny how even though something is in quotes and attributed to someone else, it still seems to be the author and the paper she works for saying it.
Huh?
Did they change the rules of writing on me?
I could have sworn that everything presented in this story was from the words of others, and their names and greek affiliations are clearly labled.
Of the many defending the Greek system, not one has answered the question asked in the headline.
What is the hierarchy of authority, and to what extent is that authority actually involved?
Of the many defending the Greek system, not one has answered the question asked in the headline.
What is the hierarchy of authority, and to what extent is that authority actually involved?
There are two main problems with the article by Katrina Garcia regarding Delta Zeta.
1) Diffusion of Responsibility from the true incident.
2) Prejudiced hypocrisy.
What is the real issue at hand? An ADULT woman became intoxicated and made the choice to do so. So where did Delta Zeta come in? They recognized that the woman was intoxicated, brought her to their own home and cared for her. They informed their internal adviser and the Greek Adviser. Were they required to? No. Were they required to care for the woman? No. Did they do anything wrong? No. Did the woman drink too much? Yes. The title of the article should have read, “Who will hold intoxicated students responsible?” The responsibility of the individual was diffused onto the larger group. Delta Zeta doesn’t have a problem, the drunken woman did. Why does our society insist on blaming others and not taking responsibility for their OWN actions? Delta Zeta broke no laws, did not harm anyone, and did the right thing by helping a woman and respected her privacy by not announcing it to the world. Everyone must keep in mind that this woman was an adult and made the choice to drink. Greeks are not pouring or forcing alcohol down the throats of students. Individuals, whether 21 years old or not, make their own choice to drink. Blaming Delta Zeta, or Greeks in general, is the easy way out of taking responsibility for your OWN actions. Take ownership of your own actions and don’t blame others for what you do right or wrong.
There have been many articles by The Collegian and/or its staff about racism, stereotypes and prejudice in general. This article subscribes to the same prejudiced hypocrisy they so adamantly fight against. To say “who will hold Greeks accountable” is a stereotypical ploy against a group of people to gain your interest and stir controversy. This title is meant to attack and stereotype all Greeks, thus provoking us as students to become offended and read their press. The truth is, anyone who is not in a fraternity or sorority has no right or knowledge to judge their actions, policies, events, functioning, etc. Greek life is part of the collegiate culture and attacking it is as prejudice and as wrong as attacking any other race, gender, ethnicity, religious creed, etc. The article was distasteful and it was pathetic of The Collegian and/or any of its staff.
There are two main problems with the article by Katrina Garcia regarding Delta Zeta.
1) Diffusion of Responsibility from the true incident.
2) Prejudiced hypocrisy.
What is the real issue at hand? An ADULT woman became intoxicated and made the choice to do so. So where did Delta Zeta come in? They recognized that the woman was intoxicated, brought her to their own home and cared for her. They informed their internal adviser and the Greek Adviser. Were they required to? No. Were they required to care for the woman? No. Did they do anything wrong? No. Did the woman drink too much? Yes. The title of the article should have read, “Who will hold intoxicated students responsible?†The responsibility of the individual was diffused onto the larger group. Delta Zeta doesn’t have a problem, the drunken woman did. Why does our society insist on blaming others and not taking responsibility for their OWN actions? Delta Zeta broke no laws, did not harm anyone, and did the right thing by helping a woman and respected her privacy by not announcing it to the world. Everyone must keep in mind that this woman was an adult and made the choice to drink. Greeks are not pouring or forcing alcohol down the throats of students. Individuals, whether 21 years old or not, make their own choice to drink. Blaming Delta Zeta, or Greeks in general, is the easy way out of taking responsibility for your OWN actions. Take ownership of your own actions and don’t blame others for what you do right or wrong.
There have been many articles by The Collegian and/or its staff about racism, stereotypes and prejudice in general. This article subscribes to the same prejudiced hypocrisy they so adamantly fight against. To say “who will hold Greeks accountable†is a stereotypical ploy against a group of people to gain your interest and stir controversy. This title is meant to attack and stereotype all Greeks, thus provoking us as students to become offended and read their press. The truth is, anyone who is not in a fraternity or sorority has no right or knowledge to judge their actions, policies, events, functioning, etc. Greek life is part of the collegiate culture and attacking it is as prejudice and as wrong as attacking any other race, gender, ethnicity, religious creed, etc. The article was distasteful and it was pathetic of The Collegian and/or any of its staff.
Heather,
I will be more than happy to answer your question regarding the hierarchy of the Greek system.
The hierarchy of authority is as follows: (from top to bottom)
-Office of Student Affairs
-Student Activities Office (Greek Life)
-Greek Councils (Interfraternal Council, Panhellenic Council, National Pan-Hellenic Council, and Universal Greek Council)
-Individual Greek Letter Organizations
Within the four councils, as far as I know, only the Interfraternal Council and Panhellenic Councils are the ones that have judiciary boards. Those two are the traditionally housed fraternities and sororities. National Pan-Hellenic Council (NPHC) and the Universal Greek Council (UGC) are traditionally the multicultural fraternities and sororities.
The judicial boards of the councils handle matters accordingly IF a letter has been written to them directly. These letters must be written directly from a Greek letter organization. These letters can involve a multitude of things such as violation of rules, etc. Upon receipt of this letter, the judicial board will meet, discuss the matter at hand, and have a hearing. During the deliberation during those hearings, they will decide then what the course of action will be regarding the organization in question. Actions taken that can be imposed on the organization in question can range from anything such as sanctions to monetary fines.
I hope that answers your question. I’m glad to see that Greeks here on campus are taking a proactive step in standing up for matters that involve us. If you all have any questions, feel free to write back on here and I would be more than glad to answer your question, deemed that it is appropriate enough for me to answer them.
Mark Torres
Vice President, Order of Omega
Member, Sigma Phi Epsilon
Heather,
I will be more than happy to answer your question regarding the hierarchy of the Greek system.
The hierarchy of authority is as follows: (from top to bottom)
-Office of Student Affairs
-Student Activities Office (Greek Life)
-Greek Councils (Interfraternal Council, Panhellenic Council, National Pan-Hellenic Council, and Universal Greek Council)
-Individual Greek Letter Organizations
Within the four councils, as far as I know, only the Interfraternal Council and Panhellenic Councils are the ones that have judiciary boards. Those two are the traditionally housed fraternities and sororities. National Pan-Hellenic Council (NPHC) and the Universal Greek Council (UGC) are traditionally the multicultural fraternities and sororities.
The judicial boards of the councils handle matters accordingly IF a letter has been written to them directly. These letters must be written directly from a Greek letter organization. These letters can involve a multitude of things such as violation of rules, etc. Upon receipt of this letter, the judicial board will meet, discuss the matter at hand, and have a hearing. During the deliberation during those hearings, they will decide then what the course of action will be regarding the organization in question. Actions taken that can be imposed on the organization in question can range from anything such as sanctions to monetary fines.
I hope that answers your question. I’m glad to see that Greeks here on campus are taking a proactive step in standing up for matters that involve us. If you all have any questions, feel free to write back on here and I would be more than glad to answer your question, deemed that it is appropriate enough for me to answer them.
Mark Torres
Vice President, Order of Omega
Member, Sigma Phi Epsilon
Mackee,
Thanks for getting the quote right this time. Too bad you seem untroubled by your flawed assumptions and loose use of quotes to distort, not only what was said, but what it meant. It is convenient to simply pretend like half of your post, rendered meaningless by your changing the word, never happened.
I’m afraid I find your “no laws are clear, that is why we have a supreme court” defense/explanation, absurd. Actually, plenty of laws are quite clear. How about, it is illegal for someone under 21 to purchase/drink alcohol. Too vague? Your approach would seem to be that the person drinking and those with them, gets to determine whether that is against the law. From that perspective, I guess everything would be unclear to you. Furthermore, does the fact that something is unclear mean it must remain so? Is that the best approach? Is allowing there to be a lack of some type of consistent standard really best for the Greek groups? Remember, vagueness is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways. When something happens, the university can conclude that you should have told them, you are at fault. What will your defense be? Well we don’t always have to? Or might you more reasonably ask why it wasn’t made clearer when you must inform them or what steps to take?
That certainly doesn’t mean that some type of matrix can be developed that accounts for every possible event, we are all complex human beings after all. However it does mean we should try to give people guidelines that will help them.
Your position seems to be:
1. If someone is not a Greek, they don’t have anything worthwhile to say.
2. Only the Greek organizations get to determine whether they are doing everything they should.
3. Rules don’t say everything or even what has to be reported, that’s the way it is and always should be.
If that is your position, fine, but I don’t think it is in the best interest of students or the Greeks.
Finally, I do think they should have notified their advisor. And no, I don’t think it would have substantially changed the circumstances, if the facts are as reported. Perhaps the advisor would have given them some advice or maybe they would have asked questions about the frat party. What definately would have changed is that the sorority would have partnered with the university on how to handle the situation and actually protected itself. Isn’t that better for the Greek organizations?
Mackee,
Thanks for getting the quote right this time. Too bad you seem untroubled by your flawed assumptions and loose use of quotes to distort, not only what was said, but what it meant. It is convenient to simply pretend like half of your post, rendered meaningless by your changing the word, never happened.
I’m afraid I find your “no laws are clear, that is why we have a supreme court” defense/explanation, absurd. Actually, plenty of laws are quite clear. How about, it is illegal for someone under 21 to purchase/drink alcohol. Too vague? Your approach would seem to be that the person drinking and those with them, gets to determine whether that is against the law. From that perspective, I guess everything would be unclear to you. Furthermore, does the fact that something is unclear mean it must remain so? Is that the best approach? Is allowing there to be a lack of some type of consistent standard really best for the Greek groups? Remember, vagueness is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways. When something happens, the university can conclude that you should have told them, you are at fault. What will your defense be? Well we don’t always have to? Or might you more reasonably ask why it wasn’t made clearer when you must inform them or what steps to take?
That certainly doesn’t mean that some type of matrix can be developed that accounts for every possible event, we are all complex human beings after all. However it does mean we should try to give people guidelines that will help them.
Your position seems to be:
1. If someone is not a Greek, they don’t have anything worthwhile to say.
2. Only the Greek organizations get to determine whether they are doing everything they should.
3. Rules don’t say everything or even what has to be reported, that’s the way it is and always should be.
If that is your position, fine, but I don’t think it is in the best interest of students or the Greeks.
Finally, I do think they should have notified their advisor. And no, I don’t think it would have substantially changed the circumstances, if the facts are as reported. Perhaps the advisor would have given them some advice or maybe they would have asked questions about the frat party. What definately would have changed is that the sorority would have partnered with the university on how to handle the situation and actually protected itself. Isn’t that better for the Greek organizations?
Mr. Baxter,
I’m jdogg3tb, and I, most of all here in this forum know about the Danny Daniels Incident. I was there, I was his roommate, I was his big brother, I fed and clothed him, I found him dead in his bed that day, I found the suicide notes under his bed, I am JJ Toledo. So I would appreciate if you didn’t bring that up again. Fell free to look up my story in the Fesno Bee. Not the Collegian. January 10th, 2006. Front page. Until you get all the facts, keep your mouth shut. Or I will shut it for you.
As an Alumnus of Fresno State I am not taking sides, but explaining a point on readership. I also want to talk about how we as a collective society can learn and possibly grow from these series of events.
The question has been asked why would the Collegian publish such an article and why on the front page?
It is because of the society on campus, and the interest of readership. Students as well as the public at large seem to be interested in controversial articles, whether it be about a celebrity, a local/world hero, city official, and in this case a fraternity or sorority. Controversial articles are what sells news and or grabs a readers attention. They have succeeded in their goal in getting the public to read and respond to their news paper.
I understand the uproar that has been caused by this article and the situation at hand, but these kinds of things sells the news papers and gets ratings for television shows.
I understand how readership works; magazines, newspapers, television news show, broadcast networks and publishers want you to pay attention to what they are saying or writing. They know what sells and what their target audience is. It is not their fault that society thrives on controversial articles, gossip, and sex. We as a society like and pay attention to these things, so when people point the finger at these publications; I think they should point the blame on ourselves.
Secondly, I want to comment on why philanthropies and public service events that groups perform are not in the media at large. It is because these groups DO NOT let the media or public at large aware of these events properly. They think that word of mouth or free speech pamphlets are enough. I think they should contact the proper channels to let their causes be known, rather than the people they want at these events. Become part of the global community if you want people to know you are doing good things for our society,
I am aware that these groups do have fantastic philanthropies and public service events but that information is usually word of mouth. Take it to the next level and and contact the Collegian about these great service events and have them cover them. Maybe just maybe the public will change their minds about fraternities and sororities. I love the Greek system, and I know/feel it is an integral part of the college experience and community; so become PRO-active instead of RETRO-active. Get these seemingly biased reporters of the news on your side. It just takes movement on your side of the playing field.
Again, I support the Greek system as well as the Collegian. These to entities on the college campus are an important part of the experience and lifestyle at Fresno State.
Lets focus in getting TIMEOUT back to his big, grey, self.
GO BULLDOGS!!!!!!
Mr. Baxter,
I’m jdogg3tb, and I, most of all here in this forum know about the Danny Daniels Incident. I was there, I was his roommate, I was his big brother, I fed and clothed him, I found him dead in his bed that day, I found the suicide notes under his bed, I am JJ Toledo. So I would appreciate if you didn’t bring that up again. Fell free to look up my story in the Fesno Bee. Not the Collegian. January 10th, 2006. Front page. Until you get all the facts, keep your mouth shut. Or I will shut it for you.
As an Alumnus of Fresno State I am not taking sides, but explaining a point on readership. I also want to talk about how we as a collective society can learn and possibly grow from these series of events.
The question has been asked why would the Collegian publish such an article and why on the front page?
It is because of the society on campus, and the interest of readership. Students as well as the public at large seem to be interested in controversial articles, whether it be about a celebrity, a local/world hero, city official, and in this case a fraternity or sorority. Controversial articles are what sells news and or grabs a readers attention. They have succeeded in their goal in getting the public to read and respond to their news paper.
I understand the uproar that has been caused by this article and the situation at hand, but these kinds of things sells the news papers and gets ratings for television shows.
I understand how readership works; magazines, newspapers, television news show, broadcast networks and publishers want you to pay attention to what they are saying or writing. They know what sells and what their target audience is. It is not their fault that society thrives on controversial articles, gossip, and sex. We as a society like and pay attention to these things, so when people point the finger at these publications; I think they should point the blame on ourselves.
Secondly, I want to comment on why philanthropies and public service events that groups perform are not in the media at large. It is because these groups DO NOT let the media or public at large aware of these events properly. They think that word of mouth or free speech pamphlets are enough. I think they should contact the proper channels to let their causes be known, rather than the people they want at these events. Become part of the global community if you want people to know you are doing good things for our society,
I am aware that these groups do have fantastic philanthropies and public service events but that information is usually word of mouth. Take it to the next level and and contact the Collegian about these great service events and have them cover them. Maybe just maybe the public will change their minds about fraternities and sororities. I love the Greek system, and I know/feel it is an integral part of the college experience and community; so become PRO-active instead of RETRO-active. Get these seemingly biased reporters of the news on your side. It just takes movement on your side of the playing field.
Again, I support the Greek system as well as the Collegian. These to entities on the college campus are an important part of the experience and lifestyle at Fresno State.
Lets focus in getting TIMEOUT back to his big, grey, self.
GO BULLDOGS!!!!!!
Mr. Baxter,
Thank you for the Google search, I am Senator of Athletics and also President of the Red Zone you can add me on Facebook if your are such a fan, and I did not say that I was the ultimate judge, I am just going off what a lot of people have told me but that is beside the point.
Regardless of what FIJI said in reports I WAS THERE with JJ and he and I were the ones that talked to him that night. I chose not to include JJ’s name in the previous post because I had not yet confirmed it was ok with him.
The question that neither Baxter or gm (who is also confidential) seems to be able to answer, what about a house taking care of a dunk girl warrants the advisor being notified! Ask any Greek this incident would not call for that to be necessary. You think it is necessary but what do you know about Greek life that warrants the notification? Does the band notify their advisors if there friend gets drunk and they take care of him? I asked my neighbors who are on the band and they laughed! But then again “Who is in Charge/ Band members friend gets drunk and band member takes care of him./ Why did they not notify there advisor/ does not make a good newspaper.
Gm, I will admit that there are some laws that are cut and dry but there are laws that are open to interpretation hence why we have the supreme court and the likes. Do not make up what I mean and then argue against that, ask for clarification. “does that mean that if something is unclear it remains so?” No like i wrote thats why we have our judicary boards to straighten these laws that are open to interpetation out.. Do you really honestly believe that the university would conclude that if you are part of an organization and you take care of a drunk girl you should report it? Talk about ignorance.
“That certainly does not mean that some type of matrix can be developed that accounts for every possible event”
EXACTLY Again thats why we have those boards in place.
When did i say or infer that if you are not Greek you do not have anything worthwhile to say? That is absurd seeing how many other groups I am involved with. I am simply saying that I am not on the equestrian team, so it is not by position to hide behind a keyboard and say that if a girl misses a work-out she should lose scholarship money. Because I do not know what happens to the team if a young lady misses a practice, because I am not involved I should not call for that.
When has the question of whether Greek orgs. are doing everything they should even come up?
I also never wrote that rules do not say everything or even what has to be reported.
You are using these to devices to get away from the real issue; the article that questions whether a sorority should be held accountable for helping a drunk girl out, although they did nothing wrong. Seeing that they did nothing wrong what would partnering with the university help protect themselves?
You write “protect themselves. Protect them against whom, because the Collegian is the only one attacking.
Baxter, did you use sicut to highlight spelling errors or were you trying to be funny again? And underage drinking is damaging to the university image, I am going to have lean more towards title 9 issues, parking, columnists bashing university courtyard, rising tuition fees, textbook costs, and campus safety as being more damaging to the universities name.
And if you are so upset about how things are going, get involved, don’t hide behind your keyboard and use the Collegian as your soapbox, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I have issues to, so I am very active on campus, and I work 30 hours a week to support myself, so there are not excuses.
Mr. Anacio,
The collegian does not sell there paper they sell advertisements and a lot of the advertisers have Greek backgrounds, so they will be held accountable.
And Timeout looks fine don’t be so negative.
Mr. Baxter,
Thank you for the Google search, I am Senator of Athletics and also President of the Red Zone you can add me on Facebook if your are such a fan, and I did not say that I was the ultimate judge, I am just going off what a lot of people have told me but that is beside the point.
Regardless of what FIJI said in reports I WAS THERE with JJ and he and I were the ones that talked to him that night. I chose not to include JJ’s name in the previous post because I had not yet confirmed it was ok with him.
The question that neither Baxter or gm (who is also confidential) seems to be able to answer, what about a house taking care of a dunk girl warrants the advisor being notified! Ask any Greek this incident would not call for that to be necessary. You think it is necessary but what do you know about Greek life that warrants the notification? Does the band notify their advisors if there friend gets drunk and they take care of him? I asked my neighbors who are on the band and they laughed! But then again “Who is in Charge/ Band members friend gets drunk and band member takes care of him./ Why did they not notify there advisor/ does not make a good newspaper.
Gm, I will admit that there are some laws that are cut and dry but there are laws that are open to interpretation hence why we have the supreme court and the likes. Do not make up what I mean and then argue against that, ask for clarification. “does that mean that if something is unclear it remains so?” No like i wrote thats why we have our judicary boards to straighten these laws that are open to interpetation out.. Do you really honestly believe that the university would conclude that if you are part of an organization and you take care of a drunk girl you should report it? Talk about ignorance.
“That certainly does not mean that some type of matrix can be developed that accounts for every possible event”
EXACTLY Again thats why we have those boards in place.
When did i say or infer that if you are not Greek you do not have anything worthwhile to say? That is absurd seeing how many other groups I am involved with. I am simply saying that I am not on the equestrian team, so it is not by position to hide behind a keyboard and say that if a girl misses a work-out she should lose scholarship money. Because I do not know what happens to the team if a young lady misses a practice, because I am not involved I should not call for that.
When has the question of whether Greek orgs. are doing everything they should even come up?
I also never wrote that rules do not say everything or even what has to be reported.
You are using these to devices to get away from the real issue; the article that questions whether a sorority should be held accountable for helping a drunk girl out, although they did nothing wrong. Seeing that they did nothing wrong what would partnering with the university help protect themselves?
You write “protect themselves. Protect them against whom, because the Collegian is the only one attacking.
Baxter, did you use sicut to highlight spelling errors or were you trying to be funny again? And underage drinking is damaging to the university image, I am going to have lean more towards title 9 issues, parking, columnists bashing university courtyard, rising tuition fees, textbook costs, and campus safety as being more damaging to the universities name.
And if you are so upset about how things are going, get involved, don’t hide behind your keyboard and use the Collegian as your soapbox, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I have issues to, so I am very active on campus, and I work 30 hours a week to support myself, so there are not excuses.
Mr. Anacio,
The collegian does not sell there paper they sell advertisements and a lot of the advertisers have Greek backgrounds, so they will be held accountable.
And Timeout looks fine don’t be so negative.
Who needs to be funny when I’ve already got the moral high ground? And how is The Collegian attacking anything?
I hesitate to break down your latest rant of incoherence for fear that my brains leak out my ears. I dare you to make the obvious retort.
The band doesn’t pretend to have it’s high-and-mighty purposes that stress some form of integrity and lawfulness, unlike Greek organizations.
Moreover, I am not the voice of The Collegian. I am the voice of myself. Get over it.
Until you do, some interesting factoids.
“Their” is the possessive use.
“They’re” is a contraction, a substitute for “they are.”
“There” refers to location.
“To” refers to the preposition, and the first part of an infinitive.
“Too” has a meaning similar to “also.”
Please review until you’re comfortable with these concepts.
Who needs to be funny when I’ve already got the moral high ground? And how is The Collegian attacking anything?
I hesitate to break down your latest rant of incoherence for fear that my brains leak out my ears. I dare you to make the obvious retort.
The band doesn’t pretend to have it’s high-and-mighty purposes that stress some form of integrity and lawfulness, unlike Greek organizations.
Moreover, I am not the voice of The Collegian. I am the voice of myself. Get over it.
Until you do, some interesting factoids.
“Their” is the possessive use.
“They’re” is a contraction, a substitute for “they are.”
“There” refers to location.
“To” refers to the preposition, and the first part of an infinitive.
“Too” has a meaning similar to “also.”
Please review until you’re comfortable with these concepts.
It’s: Not used for possessives. Only used in plural instances.
“I’ve already got” is incorrect usage. Should be “I have already gotten.” Much better still for the journalist is “already have.”
It’s: Not used for possessives. Only used in plural instances.
“I’ve already got” is incorrect usage. Should be “I have already gotten.” Much better still for the journalist is “already have.”
haha make that CONTRACTIONS, not plurals..
haha make that CONTRACTIONS, not plurals..
Baxter, what has the Greek system done to you? Did you get rejected by a fraternity house, or the more likely situation did a sorority sister turn you away? You really do not understand the dedication, and the time that we put into our fraternities. Just a question if fraternities are so bad then why have most of our presidents joined one.
Why should we tell our advisors, if we can handle the situation by ourselves? We are adults and we can handle things ourselves. Also you talk about people dying at fraternity houses, and underage drinking. Go to the University Village and walk around on a Friday night and see how many people are partying and underage. Or how about the shooting last year where two people where shot.
Another thing dues are not for parties. That money buys cleaning supplies, cooks, pledge events, goes to philanthropies, intramurals, scholarships, and renovations.
Last question, what have you done with regards to community services, or raising money for an organization that even comes close to that of the Greek system? I guarantee that you do not come close to the good that we do.
Baxter, what has the Greek system done to you? Did you get rejected by a fraternity house, or the more likely situation did a sorority sister turn you away? You really do not understand the dedication, and the time that we put into our fraternities. Just a question if fraternities are so bad then why have most of our presidents joined one.
Why should we tell our advisors, if we can handle the situation by ourselves? We are adults and we can handle things ourselves. Also you talk about people dying at fraternity houses, and underage drinking. Go to the University Village and walk around on a Friday night and see how many people are partying and underage. Or how about the shooting last year where two people where shot.
Another thing dues are not for parties. That money buys cleaning supplies, cooks, pledge events, goes to philanthropies, intramurals, scholarships, and renovations.
Last question, what have you done with regards to community services, or raising money for an organization that even comes close to that of the Greek system? I guarantee that you do not come close to the good that we do.
I apologize Mr. Baxter, I did not realize you were such a big fan, so much so that you know my moral standards. Please do not judge me, you are not better than me, in any way.
About the band, Ashley Capece, a section leader, informed me that members of the band are instructed by Tim Anderson and Gary GIlroy that they are not to drink in uniform, you all have a strict uniform policy, and you are to represent the band with integrity and lawfulness or you will be removed from band.
So do not tell me that you all are not held to some standards.
I will count this argument as finished due to this being reduced to correction of grammar, you obviously are defeated.
I apologize Mr. Baxter, I did not realize you were such a big fan, so much so that you know my moral standards. Please do not judge me, you are not better than me, in any way.
About the band, Ashley Capece, a section leader, informed me that members of the band are instructed by Tim Anderson and Gary GIlroy that they are not to drink in uniform, you all have a strict uniform policy, and you are to represent the band with integrity and lawfulness or you will be removed from band.
So do not tell me that you all are not held to some standards.
I will count this argument as finished due to this being reduced to correction of grammar, you obviously are defeated.
Nice try, Baxter Corrector. I’m not trying for journalistic perfection in talkback, though. I just try for a preponderance of literateness in my argument when I’m writing a comment.
The Greek system has done nothing to me, at least as you mean it. I don’t think I need more detail.
Associating fraternities with presidents will do you no favors. Richard Nixon was a charter member of a fraternity, and he was by far the most overtly corrupt president in his century.
The easy answer is, however, because fraternities provide their members with connections — the only thing that really separates a USC graduate from a Fresno State alum.
I never made the association between dues and parties. I don’t know where you got that.
I’ve done my own share of community service, but I don’t need coverage in The Collegian to feel vindicated or defended against Mackee’s horrible attempt at libel.
Maybe I haven’t raised as much money as a Greek organization. I know I haven’t.
I have something that will benefit me and my future students much more, however. I don’t rely on an Old Boy support network to give me anything.
Kids who’ve given up need that kind of insight more than they need the group mentality — for group mentality, high school has no frats, only gangs.
Fraternities aren’t gangs — I never said that — but the kids I’ll be working with will only have gangs. That’s one thing they can do well without.
All this ad hominem distracts us from the point: how are Greeks held accountable? If they investigate themselves, that’s somewhat of a substantial conflict of interest.
How are there honest, forthright investigations under those conditions?
Nice try, Baxter Corrector. I’m not trying for journalistic perfection in talkback, though. I just try for a preponderance of literateness in my argument when I’m writing a comment.
The Greek system has done nothing to me, at least as you mean it. I don’t think I need more detail.
Associating fraternities with presidents will do you no favors. Richard Nixon was a charter member of a fraternity, and he was by far the most overtly corrupt president in his century.
The easy answer is, however, because fraternities provide their members with connections — the only thing that really separates a USC graduate from a Fresno State alum.
I never made the association between dues and parties. I don’t know where you got that.
I’ve done my own share of community service, but I don’t need coverage in The Collegian to feel vindicated or defended against Mackee’s horrible attempt at libel.
Maybe I haven’t raised as much money as a Greek organization. I know I haven’t.
I have something that will benefit me and my future students much more, however. I don’t rely on an Old Boy support network to give me anything.
Kids who’ve given up need that kind of insight more than they need the group mentality — for group mentality, high school has no frats, only gangs.
Fraternities aren’t gangs — I never said that — but the kids I’ll be working with will only have gangs. That’s one thing they can do well without.
All this ad hominem distracts us from the point: how are Greeks held accountable? If they investigate themselves, that’s somewhat of a substantial conflict of interest.
How are there honest, forthright investigations under those conditions?
Mackee? I’m not defeated. I just had to go to class.
The band are held to some standards, to be sure, but band doesn’t plaster a Geocities Web site with purposes of higher ideals, sustained by secret ritual.
You’ve demonstrated not only ignorance but stupidity. If you don’t know the difference, there’s always dictionary.com.
It’s funny that you bring up lawfulness. Check out California statutes 25658(a-c). Is your conscience clear with these?
Mackee? I’m not defeated. I just had to go to class.
The band are held to some standards, to be sure, but band doesn’t plaster a Geocities Web site with purposes of higher ideals, sustained by secret ritual.
You’ve demonstrated not only ignorance but stupidity. If you don’t know the difference, there’s always dictionary.com.
It’s funny that you bring up lawfulness. Check out California statutes 25658(a-c). Is your conscience clear with these?
Mr. Baxter,
To answer your question of ” If they investigate themselves, that’s somewhat of a substantial conflict of interest?”
The answer is no. When the Judicial Boards are picked, individuals who are selected are ones who are open minded and not biased towards one side. When an investigation occurs, there isn’t a stone that is left unturned.
If the parties at hand, feel that they want to appeal the decision, that is when University intervention occurs.
I hope that answers your questions.
Mark Torres
Vice President, Order of Omega
Member, Sigma Phi Epsilon
Mr. Baxter,
To answer your question of ” If they investigate themselves, that’s somewhat of a substantial conflict of interest?”
The answer is no. When the Judicial Boards are picked, individuals who are selected are ones who are open minded and not biased towards one side. When an investigation occurs, there isn’t a stone that is left unturned.
If the parties at hand, feel that they want to appeal the decision, that is when University intervention occurs.
I hope that answers your questions.
Mark Torres
Vice President, Order of Omega
Member, Sigma Phi Epsilon
Baxter
What investigation needs to be done for a soroity taking care of a drunk girl? What is wrong with that?
Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr., Michael Jordan, Pete Carrol, Phil Jackson All but 2 of the presidents since 1825, 63 percent of their cabinent members. You are better than them? They have not helped society? All of those people and you bring up Nixon? Wow!
And when did we say we needed coverage, we are just saying it would be nice to show both sides.
Have you hit the mat yet? You got more?
For the record, upwards of 70 comments and three people on your side.
Again with the personal attacks please be careful about the words that you write,
YOU WILL NOT CALL ME IGNORANT!
YOU WILL NOT CALL ME STUPID!
Whether saying that I demonstrate it or whatever, that is something that is not going to happen.
And what makes you think that I am in violation of any law? Are you just assuming?
What about the band not plastering a Geocities Website makes the standards that you are held to any different? You all should not be held accountable?
Baxter
What investigation needs to be done for a soroity taking care of a drunk girl? What is wrong with that?
Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr., Michael Jordan, Pete Carrol, Phil Jackson All but 2 of the presidents since 1825, 63 percent of their cabinent members. You are better than them? They have not helped society? All of those people and you bring up Nixon? Wow!
And when did we say we needed coverage, we are just saying it would be nice to show both sides.
Have you hit the mat yet? You got more?
For the record, upwards of 70 comments and three people on your side.
Again with the personal attacks please be careful about the words that you write,
YOU WILL NOT CALL ME IGNORANT!
YOU WILL NOT CALL ME STUPID!
Whether saying that I demonstrate it or whatever, that is something that is not going to happen.
And what makes you think that I am in violation of any law? Are you just assuming?
What about the band not plastering a Geocities Website makes the standards that you are held to any different? You all should not be held accountable?