Who’s in charge?
A Collegian inquiry into an alcohol-related incident involving the Delta Zeta sorority found that the group did not inform its faculty adviser of its subsequent investigation.
The inquiry has raised questions about what goes on the record for the university and what goes unreported. According to Fresno State’s Greek adviser, the university does not require fraternities and sororities to report every occurrence.
The incident in question involving the Delta Zeta sorority was a result of drunkenness at a fraternity party in early September.
The investigation, conducted by internal advisers of Delta Zeta, involved interviewing sorority members who were present at the time of the incident. The investigation has since been concluded, according to Delta Zeta.
However, Dan Carrion, a theatre arts professor and Delta Zeta’s faculty adviser, did not know about the incident and its investigation until he was informed of it Friday by The Collegian.
Delta Zeta members at the sorority’s booth, located in the Free Speech Area, declined to give interviews last Wednesday and directed all questions to Melissa Littlewood, the group’s recruitment adviser. According to Carrion, Littlewood is a community volunteer and a former Delta Zeta who is available to give members advice.
Littlewood said Thursday the results of the investigation would be determined by Delta Zeta.
Delta Zeta was established locally in 1928 and is the oldest sorority on campus.
Littlewood said she and Sandy Hall, the regional collegiate coordinator for Delta Zeta, were conducting the internal investigation. At the time, Littlewood did not give an estimate of how long the investigation would last and said it would take “as long as necessary.”
“It depends on the severity,” Littlewood said Thursday. “There’s no timeline.”
Questions involving the investigation process and its procedures were then directed to Hall.
Hall, who is not affiliated with the university, said Monday she would not discuss the investigation and would not confirm who was involved in the procedure.
“That’s an internal process,” Hall said.
Hall said Delta Zeta has a judicial process for investigations, but this incident “didn’t fall under that [process].” Hall would not give an example of a situation that would call for such a procedure, adding that “too many variables are involved.”
Hall said a more in-depth investigation would involve more than just chapter officers and board members and “if necessary, could go up to national officers.” Hall said she is considered part of the national organization, as she reports to a national council member.
“We don’t keep anything secret,” Hall said.
Hall said Monday that she has not met Carrion and that Delta Zeta didn’t inform the faculty adviser.
“I didn’t feel like it was necessary. There wasn’t a need to address anyone else on campus,” Hall said.
Hall said all members of Delta Zeta are required to complete AlcoholEdu, an online program that includes a series of quizzes about alcohol and its effects on the mind and body.
According to the Web site for Frostburg State University in Maryland, the AlcoholEdu course “will help empower students … to make well-informed decisions about your own use of alcohol, as well as cope with the drinking behaviors of peers and friends.” The site also said the course takes approximately two to three hours to complete.
“We monitor to make sure they’ve done it,” Hall said. “It’s a pretty extensive program.”
Carrion said after meeting with Delta Zeta members Monday evening, members told him that the incident apparently did not involve anyone in the sorority. Rather, members told Carrion that it was the friend of a potential member who tagged along with her at a Delta Zeta event.
Carrion said Monday night the sorority told him the following occurred:
• Delta Zeta had “a couple of empty spots left.”
• A Delta Zeta potential and her friend came to an event held by the sorority. The potential and her friend left to go to a fraternity party.
• After the sorority event ended, more Delta Zeta sisters went to the party. There, they found the potential’s friend intoxicated.
• The sisters didn’t want to leave the potential’s friend, so they took her back to the Delta Zeta house, where they cared for her. The sisters told Carrion they had never met the potential’s friend before.
• They notified the sorority’s president, Joann Mercado, of the situation and that the girl was sick. Mercado apparently called Littlewood to let her know about the situation.
Two messages to Mercado were not returned.
Carrion also said that no one in the sorority was drinking with the girl, according to members he spoke with Monday night.
“I don’t think they were lying to me at all,” Carrion said.
Laura Williams, Fresno State’s Greek adviser, said notifying the university of internal investigations is not always necessary.
“If a chapter is holding a member accountable, that’s an internal process for them,” Williams said. “I don’t always know if a chapter is internally holding members accountable.”
But if a report is filed by a police department, Williams will know about the situation. If a fraternity or sorority is mentioned at all in a University Police Department report, a copy is sent to Williams.
Williams said she always contacts the president of the organization if that occurs.
However, if an incident is reported by the Fresno Police Department, for example, the campus police department does not automatically receive those reports, according to Amy Armstrong, the public information officer for the University Police Department. But the department can request reports.
Williams said an example of a police call would be when police are called to remove a “rowdy” individual from a fraternity house attempting to get free beer from the residence and who may have got aggressive after the person was asked to leave.
The Fresno Police Department will often let Williams know if it has a report involving a fraternity or sorority.
“By something being reported to me, the university has knowledge of it,” Williams said.
Some chapters’ national policies may require notification of certain advisers—be it alumni or faculty—of internal investigations.
“Usually, it’s somewhat predicated in their constitution,” Williams said.
But the chapters are “not forced by the university” to inform Williams of any internal investigations.
If it’s a conduct issue, based on the chapter’s polices, the alumni adviser often has to report to its regional or national authority.
Williams, who became Greek adviser in June 2006, said one of her roles is to act as a liaison between the university and Greek life.
“As Greek adviser, one of my major roles is to be an advocate of Greek life,” Williams said, “to help them by providing resources … help interpret policies.”
Williams said about two to three times each month, she has a conversation with a fraternity or sorority member. Usually, a chapter president will initiate the discussion with Williams, and it typically involves alcohol-related concerns for a member of the group. Sometimes, Williams may even start the conversation with a chapter president.
Williams described the 39-chapter Greek system as taking the “stool approach,” with the chapter as the seat of the chair and each leg as a different resource for its members — its alumni, national advisers and the university.
“Unlike other students, they have more of a support network,” Williams said.
But the question of informing faculty advisers of internal chapter issues, Williams said, has “a somewhat murky answer.” It depends on what kind of relationship the chapter has with its adviser and how severe the situation is.
When internal investigations are conducted by a chapter, Williams said the group can decide whether or not to inform the faculty adviser, depending on what leg of the stool the chapter feels most comfortable addressing the problem to.
She said “a large number of faculty/staff advisers” are very involved with their fraternities/sororities. “I think it depends on the chapter,” Williams said. “I think some of that is up to how much they [advisers] want to be involved.”
However, Williams said if a situation is bigger, the university can hold the chapter accountable, and the fraternity or sorority can then be sanctioned by the university.
If actions by the university are taken, the campus will always inform the national organization and its alumni.
But regarding alcohol-related incidents and conduct issues involving the university’s fraternities and sororities, Williams said, “Of late, it’s been non-Greek or non-Fresno State students.”
“Yes, they still have things to learn and they are working on that,” Williams said. “We don’t think Greeks are perfect.”
Further discussion can be found here:
http://collegian.csufresno.edu/2007/09/28/whos-in-charge-explained/
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How are Judicial Boards unbiased when it is their own Greek organization they investigate?
What’s the purpose of an adviser if not to be a source of advice?
By the way, it’s a shame you’re the sole lucid and clear-headed Greek yet to comment on this post. There have to be more of you out there, somewhere, but I’m largely going on faith for this one.
How are Judicial Boards unbiased when it is their own Greek organization they investigate?
What’s the purpose of an adviser if not to be a source of advice?
By the way, it’s a shame you’re the sole lucid and clear-headed Greek yet to comment on this post. There have to be more of you out there, somewhere, but I’m largely going on faith for this one.
Mackee, I do appreciate the fact that you say you wouldn’t write about something if you didn’t know anything about it. Neither would a good reporter. That’s why we investigate and do research.
I find your example of the equestrian team hilarious. I haven’t seen a non-sequiter like that since my Methods of Reasoning class. As a member of the team, I can tell you that if a reporter were to call the coach and ask about the consequences for missing workouts, the coach would tell you what they are. Our rules and regulations are very clear-cut.
To everyone questioning the value of “investigating taking care of a drunk girl,” I suggest you think about why Delta Zeta thought it necessary to do an internal investigation. Clearly there’s something there beyond a simple case of frat partying. Unless Greeks do investigations after every frat party, which to my knowledge may well be the case. Obviously, a lowly journalism student such as myself can’t apsire to understand every nuance of such lofty organizations.
Mackee, I do appreciate the fact that you say you wouldn’t write about something if you didn’t know anything about it. Neither would a good reporter. That’s why we investigate and do research.
I find your example of the equestrian team hilarious. I haven’t seen a non-sequiter like that since my Methods of Reasoning class. As a member of the team, I can tell you that if a reporter were to call the coach and ask about the consequences for missing workouts, the coach would tell you what they are. Our rules and regulations are very clear-cut.
To everyone questioning the value of “investigating taking care of a drunk girl,” I suggest you think about why Delta Zeta thought it necessary to do an internal investigation. Clearly there’s something there beyond a simple case of frat partying. Unless Greeks do investigations after every frat party, which to my knowledge may well be the case. Obviously, a lowly journalism student such as myself can’t apsire to understand every nuance of such lofty organizations.
Michael Jordan has improved society? Long shot, even for him.
And what’s with this power in numbers? It’s a good thing the majority is always right. I bet Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, Jr. had something to say about that one.
Yes, I am assuming. I also know from direct experience that there are people within at least a preponderance of the fraternities who provide alcohol to minors. Non-Greeks do it too, but why sink down to their level?
I will call you ignorant, and I will call you stupid. I represent myself in this forum, and you yourself.
The band is held accountable. Band members are expelled without question upon finding that an official policy of sufficient severity has been breached.
This is ignorance. You are operating from hearsay on a false premise, and you have never been exposed to accurate information.
Stupidity is when you willfully ignore what you’ve presented, dismiss accurate information out of hand.
It’s also when you get really angry and hit the Caps Lock.
I’m actually curious about that Danny Daniels story you were telling, though. If you left, why did you leave? If you didn’t leave, what did you do? How did Daniels procure the alcohol? If you were there and you don’t know how he found those shots to mix together, what’s your best guess, having been in the room at the same time?
I remind you of California statute 25658(a).
Michael Jordan has improved society? Long shot, even for him.
And what’s with this power in numbers? It’s a good thing the majority is always right. I bet Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, Jr. had something to say about that one.
Yes, I am assuming. I also know from direct experience that there are people within at least a preponderance of the fraternities who provide alcohol to minors. Non-Greeks do it too, but why sink down to their level?
I will call you ignorant, and I will call you stupid. I represent myself in this forum, and you yourself.
The band is held accountable. Band members are expelled without question upon finding that an official policy of sufficient severity has been breached.
This is ignorance. You are operating from hearsay on a false premise, and you have never been exposed to accurate information.
Stupidity is when you willfully ignore what you’ve presented, dismiss accurate information out of hand.
It’s also when you get really angry and hit the Caps Lock.
I’m actually curious about that Danny Daniels story you were telling, though. If you left, why did you leave? If you didn’t leave, what did you do? How did Daniels procure the alcohol? If you were there and you don’t know how he found those shots to mix together, what’s your best guess, having been in the room at the same time?
I remind you of California statute 25658(a).
Again I say, really easy to hide behind your keyboard and call people names.
Since you have lowered this to a one-on-one I would be happy to meet with you during my office hours Monday 10-11, 12-1. And 10-11, 1-2 Wednesday in the ASI office we can discuss Danny Daniels and my stupidity and ignorance like men.
my email address is Mack3m21@yahoo.com
Again I say, really easy to hide behind your keyboard and call people names.
Since you have lowered this to a one-on-one I would be happy to meet with you during my office hours Monday 10-11, 12-1. And 10-11, 1-2 Wednesday in the ASI office we can discuss Danny Daniels and my stupidity and ignorance like men.
my email address is Mack3m21@yahoo.com
jdogg3tb,
You are a qualified moron and just leveled a threat of violence against someone in this forum. I believe that is a violation of the law. Talking about Danny Daniel’s death is not against the law. It’s actually very logical to discuss that particular incident in light of other matters involving the Greek system at Fresno State—–the purpose of the article was to initiate discussion and see if accountability does really exist.
MacKee, you have too much time on your hands—as a student government representative, you should also choose your words a little more carefully. You are advocating using your elected office (our student fees are utilized for) so you can hash out some nonsense argument with a fellow student. I’m talking to AS tomorrow about revoking your seat and I’ll discuss your position with the RedZone to boot. Talk about unbecoming statements made by a ranking member of student government. Get into your little hussy thing with Baxter online or by e-mail. If you want to exchange some heated words with Baxter, do it on your own time.
Also Baxter, you a bit harsh even though you are not resorting to slandering and defaming other students.
The bulk of Greeks posting on this rediculous forum are not the intellectual and elite men and women of campus they are portraying themselves to be—-their words have fully demonstrated this truth.
MacKee wants to wax poetic about all the great things fraternities and sororities do for society? You know the great history of segregation and racism that has also come from these groups? The deaths (in California alone since 2000) as a result of binge drinking and hazing? The dumbing down of college campus discourse? The array of sexual assaults and rapes at CSU Fresno alone?
There are positives and negatives about the system as a whole. What does the fact that Michael Jordan was in a UNC frat have anything to do with anything?
Can we end this garbage once and for all? We are getting nowhere. College campuses are big enough for all of us—-dweebs, jocks, frats, stoners, dillweeds, douchebags. Some people have said some mildly entertaining and somewhat incriminating things on this forum. Just shut your traps, everybody. Few of you have anything worthwhile to say.
jdogg3tb,
You are a qualified moron and just leveled a threat of violence against someone in this forum. I believe that is a violation of the law. Talking about Danny Daniel’s death is not against the law. It’s actually very logical to discuss that particular incident in light of other matters involving the Greek system at Fresno State—–the purpose of the article was to initiate discussion and see if accountability does really exist.
MacKee, you have too much time on your hands—as a student government representative, you should also choose your words a little more carefully. You are advocating using your elected office (our student fees are utilized for) so you can hash out some nonsense argument with a fellow student. I’m talking to AS tomorrow about revoking your seat and I’ll discuss your position with the RedZone to boot. Talk about unbecoming statements made by a ranking member of student government. Get into your little hussy thing with Baxter online or by e-mail. If you want to exchange some heated words with Baxter, do it on your own time.
Also Baxter, you a bit harsh even though you are not resorting to slandering and defaming other students.
The bulk of Greeks posting on this rediculous forum are not the intellectual and elite men and women of campus they are portraying themselves to be—-their words have fully demonstrated this truth.
MacKee wants to wax poetic about all the great things fraternities and sororities do for society? You know the great history of segregation and racism that has also come from these groups? The deaths (in California alone since 2000) as a result of binge drinking and hazing? The dumbing down of college campus discourse? The array of sexual assaults and rapes at CSU Fresno alone?
There are positives and negatives about the system as a whole. What does the fact that Michael Jordan was in a UNC frat have anything to do with anything?
Can we end this garbage once and for all? We are getting nowhere. College campuses are big enough for all of us—-dweebs, jocks, frats, stoners, dillweeds, douchebags. Some people have said some mildly entertaining and somewhat incriminating things on this forum. Just shut your traps, everybody. Few of you have anything worthwhile to say.
Mackee,
the ‘brotha’ side appears to have finally emerged. Quit the machismo. who you tryna fool, playboy?
the brothers of Phi Gamma Delta could have easily been brought up on charges for the death of DannyDaniels. While Baxter seems like a hothead, he’s likely right on this count. TheGreeks who haveposted on this site seem to be the source of the elevated hostilities.
Mackee,
the ‘brotha’ side appears to have finally emerged. Quit the machismo. who you tryna fool, playboy?
the brothers of Phi Gamma Delta could have easily been brought up on charges for the death of DannyDaniels. While Baxter seems like a hothead, he’s likely right on this count. TheGreeks who haveposted on this site seem to be the source of the elevated hostilities.
I would just like to make it clear that my invitation to Mr. Baxter was of no hostile intent, I just think that the conversation was going no where. I offered my office hours as an elected student representative to converse with a student in a neutral setting. The invitation is open to anyone.
Ms. Branesh
The “brotha” side has nothing to do with the topic.
I would just like to make it clear that my invitation to Mr. Baxter was of no hostile intent, I just think that the conversation was going no where. I offered my office hours as an elected student representative to converse with a student in a neutral setting. The invitation is open to anyone.
Ms. Branesh
The “brotha” side has nothing to do with the topic.
For the most part you are looking at one isolated occurrence. If you looked and put under the microscope every student at fresno state, you would have an overflow of students and reports. Why are we looking at greek organizations as a scape goat? What we need to do is spread alcohol awareness among people who do decide to use. The problem is not underage drinking, the problem is people put in the situation where they are trying to cope with social norms and respond to peer pressure. That is the real problem, one in which, that will never go away. As long as we are approaching drinking as an attack we will never suffice in a war that needs to be fought. We are contesting like hypocrites and not addressing the problem like we should. And, to contradict, what is the problem? If we broke down everyone who had an involvement in an abuse of one substance, then we might as well attack the very social and disgusting habit of smoking on campus? We do not need to accentuate each incident, because we do not do so for the average student.
For the most part you are looking at one isolated occurrence. If you looked and put under the microscope every student at fresno state, you would have an overflow of students and reports. Why are we looking at greek organizations as a scape goat? What we need to do is spread alcohol awareness among people who do decide to use. The problem is not underage drinking, the problem is people put in the situation where they are trying to cope with social norms and respond to peer pressure. That is the real problem, one in which, that will never go away. As long as we are approaching drinking as an attack we will never suffice in a war that needs to be fought. We are contesting like hypocrites and not addressing the problem like we should. And, to contradict, what is the problem? If we broke down everyone who had an involvement in an abuse of one substance, then we might as well attack the very social and disgusting habit of smoking on campus? We do not need to accentuate each incident, because we do not do so for the average student.
are all ASI senators encouraged to use their office hours for discussing personal issues?
are all ASI senators encouraged to use their office hours for discussing personal issues?
Additional comments and discussion on this issue can be found here:
‘Who’s in charge?’ explained.
Sincerely,
Joseph Hollak
Multimedia Editor
The Collegian Online
Additional comments and discussion on this issue can be found here:
‘Who’s in charge?’ explained.
Sincerely,
Joseph Hollak
Multimedia Editor
The Collegian Online
Hey Baxter!
Werent you in TAU BETA SIGMA… the co ed band sorrority??… i used to be in band and have seen what goes on behind the scenes. it just seems mind boggling that you are attacking greek organizations when you yourself are in one.
Hey Baxter!
Werent you in TAU BETA SIGMA… the co ed band sorrority??… i used to be in band and have seen what goes on behind the scenes. it just seems mind boggling that you are attacking greek organizations when you yourself are in one.
The fact that a student senator would offer up an office paid for by the student body to discuss some personal spat he’s having with a student (supposedly being served by the same senator) is outrageous.
We’ll keep this in mind if you’re running for reelection, MacKee.
Get to work on finding a way to give us extended library hours and don’t worry about Ben Baxter or the comments of other students.
Your probably using your office computer paid for by my student fees to type your posts.
I’m rather shocked at this misuse and abuse of office.
The fact that a student senator would offer up an office paid for by the student body to discuss some personal spat he’s having with a student (supposedly being served by the same senator) is outrageous.
We’ll keep this in mind if you’re running for reelection, MacKee.
Get to work on finding a way to give us extended library hours and don’t worry about Ben Baxter or the comments of other students.
Your probably using your office computer paid for by my student fees to type your posts.
I’m rather shocked at this misuse and abuse of office.
McLovin – do your student fees go to pay for the collegian? the answer would be yes… so your fees (and mine) paid for this article to be written… that’s what happens when a newspaper does not have to compete for readers… they can write poorly written articles and students are suppose to accept it.
McLovin – do your student fees go to pay for the collegian? the answer would be yes… so your fees (and mine) paid for this article to be written… that’s what happens when a newspaper does not have to compete for readers… they can write poorly written articles and students are suppose to accept it.
Some (un)fair comment from a (Daily) Collegian alumnus:
1. I’ve read the story. Very stupid as a news piece. I agree with a prior comment–might have been better on the opinion page. Makes no sense as written. Why bother even to print it–unless the paper just wants to stir the poop–which it has a history of doing where it comes to the social Greeks.
2. Why has the Collegian studiously avoided coverage of the “bad boy” jocks? Has Sports Information threatened, as it has in the past, to revoke Collegian press credentials again?
3. Last but not least, the vaunted alcohol survey. The thing’s crap. Can we say, predetermined results.
Some (un)fair comment from a (Daily) Collegian alumnus:
1. I’ve read the story. Very stupid as a news piece. I agree with a prior comment–might have been better on the opinion page. Makes no sense as written. Why bother even to print it–unless the paper just wants to stir the poop–which it has a history of doing where it comes to the social Greeks.
2. Why has the Collegian studiously avoided coverage of the “bad boy” jocks? Has Sports Information threatened, as it has in the past, to revoke Collegian press credentials again?
3. Last but not least, the vaunted alcohol survey. The thing’s crap. Can we say, predetermined results.
As someone who identified himself as your friend threatened to shut my mouth for me, I do not feel that meeting with you in the near future would be anything but hazardous to my health.
Keep your schedule open and I might yet come, though.
Yes, I was in Tau Beta Sigma, national honorary band sorority. It has a strict no-alcohol policy for all official functions. This includes unofficial functions where only sorority members were present or invited.
Tau Beta Sigma also doesn’t have a house on frat row, and so members of other social Greek organizations — as opposed to the honorary Greek organizations like Tau Beta Sigma — regularly and rather vocally disparage Greeks without a house as “not being a real frat.”
I wasn’t going to bring it up. It would only make me look pompous.
In any case, I’d say that my membership in a Greek organization would make the case for my “attacking” Greek organizations all the more credible.
I don’t know if you can call what I’m doing an attack, though. It’s more like I’ve been poking Mackee with a stick, to see what he says.
In response to the comments about myself, I pretty much agree. I am often very much a hothead and quite a bit harsh. For the record, the last time I even went this far was for Neyman’s UHS column last semester, though.
This is just what happens when I get into reality check mode.
Want to see more? Check out this blog.
As someone who identified himself as your friend threatened to shut my mouth for me, I do not feel that meeting with you in the near future would be anything but hazardous to my health.
Keep your schedule open and I might yet come, though.
Yes, I was in Tau Beta Sigma, national honorary band sorority. It has a strict no-alcohol policy for all official functions. This includes unofficial functions where only sorority members were present or invited.
Tau Beta Sigma also doesn’t have a house on frat row, and so members of other social Greek organizations — as opposed to the honorary Greek organizations like Tau Beta Sigma — regularly and rather vocally disparage Greeks without a house as “not being a real frat.”
I wasn’t going to bring it up. It would only make me look pompous.
In any case, I’d say that my membership in a Greek organization would make the case for my “attacking” Greek organizations all the more credible.
I don’t know if you can call what I’m doing an attack, though. It’s more like I’ve been poking Mackee with a stick, to see what he says.
In response to the comments about myself, I pretty much agree. I am often very much a hothead and quite a bit harsh. For the record, the last time I even went this far was for Neyman’s UHS column last semester, though.
This is just what happens when I get into reality check mode.
Want to see more? Check out this blog.
Mackee,
You are a riot!
“Don’t make up what I mean and argue against that.”
You are the one that said “no (emphasis on no) laws are clear.” So you are saying I should have ignored what you actually said. Does that mean I should ignore what you just said as well? Now you are trying to claim that you haven’t been arguing that people who are not members of Greek organizations shouldn’t comment on this issue because they don’t know what is really going on? Great, I’m happy that you concede that is a ridiculous position to take. When you argue against my position that current rules and guidelines regarding these types of issues involving school organizations, including greeks, should be clarified and university oversight strengthened, then you are saying that the current policy where the rules don’t stipulate what has to be reported, is the way it should be. Why then, if that is your position, would you deny it by saying you never wrote that the rules don’t say everything or even what has to be reported? You state that you are not saying the rules must remain unclear, but then argue that the current rules are fine because the greeks interpret them. You ask what they could be protecting themselves against by speaking with their advisor. The fact that you can’t see the various liability issues that come up involving underage drinking, or any other illegal activity, is ample evidence that you could use the sage advice of someone outside your group. As I pointed out, it also makes it more difficult for the university to arbitrarily punish an organization for something when their faculty advisor was fully aware of what was going on and had not counseled an alternative course.
Finally, you write that “you are using these devices to get away from the real issue.” That is a line that applies to you Mackee, not me. I have repeatedly said that my main concern here is the level of university oversight and the clarity of rules and guidelines provided to all involved in these matters. The question is not “whether a sorority should be held accountable for helping a drunk girl out,” but whether a sometimes you tell, sometimes you don’t, no one knows where the line is, approach is the right one for all involved. While I would have recommended that the girls inform their advisor, advocating for greater clarity is not the same as saying that under a new approach they must. Improving communication and giving better guidelines means just that. Where the lines are drawn is something that all the parties involved should discuss and negotiate.
Since that has been my position from the beginning of the post, and I don’t think you are too stupid to grasp my point, I can only conclude that you have simply taken the stance that any criticism of the way things currently are, is an attack on the greeks. For the record, I have no problem with the Greeks. I just find the idea of waiting until something bad happens before making changes to be foolish and shortsighted.
Mackee,
You are a riot!
“Don’t make up what I mean and argue against that.”
You are the one that said “no (emphasis on no) laws are clear.” So you are saying I should have ignored what you actually said. Does that mean I should ignore what you just said as well? Now you are trying to claim that you haven’t been arguing that people who are not members of Greek organizations shouldn’t comment on this issue because they don’t know what is really going on? Great, I’m happy that you concede that is a ridiculous position to take. When you argue against my position that current rules and guidelines regarding these types of issues involving school organizations, including greeks, should be clarified and university oversight strengthened, then you are saying that the current policy where the rules don’t stipulate what has to be reported, is the way it should be. Why then, if that is your position, would you deny it by saying you never wrote that the rules don’t say everything or even what has to be reported? You state that you are not saying the rules must remain unclear, but then argue that the current rules are fine because the greeks interpret them. You ask what they could be protecting themselves against by speaking with their advisor. The fact that you can’t see the various liability issues that come up involving underage drinking, or any other illegal activity, is ample evidence that you could use the sage advice of someone outside your group. As I pointed out, it also makes it more difficult for the university to arbitrarily punish an organization for something when their faculty advisor was fully aware of what was going on and had not counseled an alternative course.
Finally, you write that “you are using these devices to get away from the real issue.” That is a line that applies to you Mackee, not me. I have repeatedly said that my main concern here is the level of university oversight and the clarity of rules and guidelines provided to all involved in these matters. The question is not “whether a sorority should be held accountable for helping a drunk girl out,” but whether a sometimes you tell, sometimes you don’t, no one knows where the line is, approach is the right one for all involved. While I would have recommended that the girls inform their advisor, advocating for greater clarity is not the same as saying that under a new approach they must. Improving communication and giving better guidelines means just that. Where the lines are drawn is something that all the parties involved should discuss and negotiate.
Since that has been my position from the beginning of the post, and I don’t think you are too stupid to grasp my point, I can only conclude that you have simply taken the stance that any criticism of the way things currently are, is an attack on the greeks. For the record, I have no problem with the Greeks. I just find the idea of waiting until something bad happens before making changes to be foolish and shortsighted.
Who do the Greeks think they are, mafioso or the gestapo? You’re operating within the confines of the campus and this being a state university, public law and regulations! The students of Fresno State are in a whole variety of orgs and clubs. You have no right to act according to your own system of rules and regulations if those trump the greater collection of laws.
If you haze, you as members of that fraternity can be brought up on charges. If you furnish booze to minors, same deal. Questioning the actions of the Greek system at Fresno State is NOT, I repeat, NOT off limits to any member of the campus community, city of Fresno, or California at large.
Who do the Greeks think they are, mafioso or the gestapo? You’re operating within the confines of the campus and this being a state university, public law and regulations! The students of Fresno State are in a whole variety of orgs and clubs. You have no right to act according to your own system of rules and regulations if those trump the greater collection of laws.
If you haze, you as members of that fraternity can be brought up on charges. If you furnish booze to minors, same deal. Questioning the actions of the Greek system at Fresno State is NOT, I repeat, NOT off limits to any member of the campus community, city of Fresno, or California at large.
I have a question, why do you all bring up the events of Mr. Daniels death? I was not at Fresno State when the incident happened, however I have multiple friends that knew him and where friends with him, I also have friends in the Fraternity, FIJI. The gentlemen of FIJI have faced the schools and Greek community’s decision of what they thought was best for the house. From recent posts, I know that people do not agree with Greeks facing the Judicial Board, and when they take care of problem. I know that you, Mr. Baxter, are a fan of pointing out California Statutes, Ill give you an idea, have you ever heard of the phrase, Jury of your peers?! Or better yet a Impartial Jury. Mark Torres, a leader in the Greek Community, has been gracious enough to give you all a opportunity to have insight as to how the Greek community works with regards to this specific matter. Another point I would like to make is, if we went up against a board of faculty, wouldn’t that be the very opposite? Granted, Fraternity and Sorority Alumni and Alumnus are teachers here at our lovely closed minded campus. (Did you gasp at the thought of that too deep!?) What about this, most faculty have a preconceived notion of Greeks, and some Greeks do not even think about wearing letters for the first week or two when school starts.
I hate to break it to you all but a majority of the “Who’s Who” of Fresno is Alumni and Alumnus of Fresno States Greek System. For example, the Downey Planetarium is from an endowment from a Greek.
Cops are called on Greeks when there are in violation of PC 373a which is quite frequently because of the occupants of the Section Eight housing. Fresno PD as well as the University Police Department continuously circle “Greek Row” and also use the Problem Oriented Policing model. (Yes, I am Criminology (& Psychology) major and I am throwing out phrases and codes, not to look smart like the rest of you are, but to make a point. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, feel free to Google the term just like how whoever Googled Mackee and researched his life.)
In conclusion, I would like to know what the Greek GPA has to do with the current topic at hand?
I have a question, why do you all bring up the events of Mr. Daniels death? I was not at Fresno State when the incident happened, however I have multiple friends that knew him and where friends with him, I also have friends in the Fraternity, FIJI. The gentlemen of FIJI have faced the schools and Greek community’s decision of what they thought was best for the house. From recent posts, I know that people do not agree with Greeks facing the Judicial Board, and when they take care of problem. I know that you, Mr. Baxter, are a fan of pointing out California Statutes, Ill give you an idea, have you ever heard of the phrase, Jury of your peers?! Or better yet a Impartial Jury. Mark Torres, a leader in the Greek Community, has been gracious enough to give you all a opportunity to have insight as to how the Greek community works with regards to this specific matter. Another point I would like to make is, if we went up against a board of faculty, wouldn’t that be the very opposite? Granted, Fraternity and Sorority Alumni and Alumnus are teachers here at our lovely closed minded campus. (Did you gasp at the thought of that too deep!?) What about this, most faculty have a preconceived notion of Greeks, and some Greeks do not even think about wearing letters for the first week or two when school starts.
I hate to break it to you all but a majority of the “Who’s Who†of Fresno is Alumni and Alumnus of Fresno States Greek System. For example, the Downey Planetarium is from an endowment from a Greek.
Cops are called on Greeks when there are in violation of PC 373a which is quite frequently because of the occupants of the Section Eight housing. Fresno PD as well as the University Police Department continuously circle “Greek Row” and also use the Problem Oriented Policing model. (Yes, I am Criminology (& Psychology) major and I am throwing out phrases and codes, not to look smart like the rest of you are, but to make a point. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, feel free to Google the term just like how whoever Googled Mackee and researched his life.)
In conclusion, I would like to know what the Greek GPA has to do with the current topic at hand?
Andrea Moser, you’re an unenlightened simpleton. The death happened in early 2006—right (please correct me if I’m wrong). That time has long past. It’s no longer a hush-hush topic.
Andrea Moser, you’re an unenlightened simpleton. The death happened in early 2006—right (please correct me if I’m wrong). That time has long past. It’s no longer a hush-hush topic.
Dear McLovin, (Thats already old, get a life, please.)
Unenlightened Simpleton!? Ha. I came to Fresno State in the Fall of 2006. I don’t bring up topics that where before my time here at State; as well memory’s that friends don’t like to talk about. Its really NONE of my business.
Did I say it was a “hush-hush” topic? No. I clearly stated that the Gentlemen of FIJI Fraternity have faced the schools and Greek community’s decision of what they thought was best for the house.
Dear McLovin, (Thats already old, get a life, please.)
Unenlightened Simpleton!? Ha. I came to Fresno State in the Fall of 2006. I don’t bring up topics that where before my time here at State; as well memory’s that friends don’t like to talk about. Its really NONE of my business.
Did I say it was a “hush-hush” topic? No. I clearly stated that the Gentlemen of FIJI Fraternity have faced the schools and Greek community’s decision of what they thought was best for the house.
It SHOULD be your business. That house was violating not only campus rules and regs, but probably state law if the excess drinking thing is true. The young man was NOT even a student. who gives a damn when you came to this campus, you don’t want all student organizations to follow the same set of regulations? Yeah, it was a sore subject—-at the time (and long after)——but the grace period/year of mourning was some time ago. Immature young men who violate laws on a consistent basis have no right to dictate to other students what is an appropriate topic. Thanks……
It SHOULD be your business. That house was violating not only campus rules and regs, but probably state law if the excess drinking thing is true. The young man was NOT even a student. who gives a damn when you came to this campus, you don’t want all student organizations to follow the same set of regulations? Yeah, it was a sore subject—-at the time (and long after)——but the grace period/year of mourning was some time ago. Immature young men who violate laws on a consistent basis have no right to dictate to other students what is an appropriate topic. Thanks……
It might be best to leave the subject of Danny Daniels be. There is a lawsuit pending, against the University, the frat and various individuals, filed by Daniels’ family. I wonder which posters on this threat might be defendants or witnesses in that suit? Or might become defendants or witnesses?
It might be best to leave the subject of Danny Daniels be. There is a lawsuit pending, against the University, the frat and various individuals, filed by Daniels’ family. I wonder which posters on this threat might be defendants or witnesses in that suit? Or might become defendants or witnesses?
oops, “threat” in the previous post should be “thread”
oops, “threat” in the previous post should be “thread”