just wanted to extend this into Sept. 2009--------good three year run for this message board

Thanks For keeping it on point!

Best Regards

Hey Lena Yarbrough

Why don't you try getting a job or two even like most CSU students work 30 hours a week and then do some homework while balancing all your cost of living : rent, food, electricity, garbage, and gas then we can see how enthused you are in class too.


Don't work you'll be a zombie like us soon.

Does the state give the CSU Fresno money for them to be on campus? Where does the money go? How is it spent? Should the money also be benefiting CSU students who pay out the butt to be here?

I am tired of trying to walk through a herd of high school students, myself, while I am on my way to class.

Are you kidding me??? Visual evidence would not support the contrary.

Have you ever been to a UC campus (excluding Merced and Riverside)?


Hmongs are cool...they dont count.

UC's don't have exclusivly Asian populations? Are you sure? Visual evidence would support the contrary.

Thanks.

Just a (syntactically incorrect) note: CSUf is a CSU, AND it has HS students.

No need to get racial on Asians @ UC's. UC's don't have an exclusive Asian population. CSUF has a large Asian population due to Hmong population in the valley, among other Asian cultures.

I wish you lot would quit complaining, I was at CSUF for a couple years and yes it was irritating at times, but every school has its annoyances:

The UC's have annoying Asians
The Ivy's have annoying tourists
The CSU's have idiots.
You have High Schoolers.

Also, I love that this turned into a longest reply and most syntactically complex competition.

Anon on 13-Aug-2008 has a few good points. Where UHS is meant to help enrich the education of a few select teenagers, keep in mind that most teenagers don't have the freedom of movement that UHS students have. UHS not only have their own little corner here and now, even once their actual 'self-contained' building is built, they'll still have access to CSUF's overall campus, seemingly without restriction. The same as the adult population in Fresno, whether a student or not (it is an open-to-the-public, higher education facility). But UHS students are not adults, nor are they young-adults (quite yet), nor are they guaranteed to become CSUF students (nor should there be any guarantee), but are granted special privilege.

Case & controversy: If the USU is busy, get out. That simple. It is not your space. Go play in YOUR sandbox, not ours. And is the UHS School Board paying fees (for facility usage and maintenance) in addition to class fees? That I'd like to know. I like sitting in the pit, but if there are groups of UHS students taking up a few tables, and it means all of the tables are full ... it seriously irritates me. Not to mention having a group walk up and act and speak completely immature while attempting to study. (Not completely discounting that there are irritating college students from time to time, but not nearly in the frequency to which I've encountered UHS students, in relation to the student bodies.)

MAYBE, just MAYBE, UHS students should be required to live on campus (in their own little corner), during the week, and manage time, and class schedules like college students (if they already don't), in an effort to live a college lifestyle, since that is the overall vicinity of where they are going to school.

I fail to see any connection between being "forced" to come to UHS, and acting immature in college classes. I went to private schools for HS, and if I acted stupid, we were slapped down by our instructors. College professors won't necessarily do this, because they carry a different brand of ego and demeanor than underpaid private high school teachers. College professors do expect a bit more maturity from their students than that of high schoolers, and will kick out persistently immature individuals. Essentially, the opportunity to come to a college campus for HS is like a private institution in a way ... the participants are expected to act and be a bit more mature, considering the educational expectations are at least a little more demanding (keep in mind, it's just a CSU, not a UC, and definitely not Harvard). Being immature is just what High Schooler's do, in an adolescent attempt to come into their own. The primary difference is that even the youngest of college students have already gone through most of that physiological phase, and are starting to settle into different phases of young adult-hood, and are already irritated with having left the HS scene (after 4 years of it), only to be encountering it all over again; also while trying to adjust to a new 4-year (or 5 or 6) phase of their life ... supposedly "higher education" with "lower minions" milling about.

And here's the worst part of this dumb situation: One day some stupid, immature Frat Boy, and some stupid immature high schooler are friends, and some high schoolers end up at some drinking frat party ... and a high schooler drinks too damn much, or gets into a fight with a frat boy, or rapes a frat girl ... all the worst things that can happen, probably eventually will.

Any other High School that comes to this campus for a tour ... comes with chaperons ... so why in the hell don't I see them standing about, monitoring UHS student behavior around the USU?

Frankly, all I care about is that UHS students stay the hell out of my way, and don't take up tables, space, laptop outlets or any other college student resources while on campus. I'm irritated with their presence in the pit, lower floor of the USU ... which is where I sit to study. I don't mind the background noise ... but I do mind loud and obnoxious and immature voices rising above the rest of the cacophony, or not paying attention to where they're going and getting in the way.

UHS students don't pay the tuition, but the UHS school board pays for every single class the students take. The kids even have to pay for their own books.

In my opinion, this has nothing to do with the kids who attend UHS. Are they annoying? Yes, but so was I when I was a teen. My problem with UHS is that the students don't pay tuition to Fresno State. If they want access to campus, they should pay the same amount as the college students. When I was attending FSU, the UHS students used the same facilities I did on a daily basis. Some were even enrolled in my classes! They should have to pay some kind of tuition if they want to use the resources available at FSU. I'm surprised more FSU students are not angry about this. It's completely unfair.

I'm a UHS student, and i agree with you, to some extent. Many kids are extremely immature, ignorant, and annoying, because really these are just a bunch of teenagers, and what more would you expect? But on the other hand, not all of us are. I'm reading many of you saying we need our own little corner to play on, but really, we do "have" a corner, if you'd even call it that. It would take me less than a minute to walk around the entire border of the little trailer park we like to call school.

I can't make excuses for all of the immature kids and dumb things that we've done, but we are hopefully making a small building on the campus, and breaking ground for it this November, but we can't scrounge up the money for it, which is why it has been delayed for years. In response to the post above me, this is the solution to the "rivalry" going on between college students and UHS kids. They're pretty much doing just that, giving us a little corner where we can be, far away from most other classes and the Student Union. It should be in the little "bowl" right off of Keats and...Cedar, i think it is. Or was it Willow? I'm not sure, but i think you know where I'm talking about.

Most of those other kids were forced to come here, which is why so many act so immature in college classes, because, frankly, they don't care about the great education they're receiving. I came here because i thought i could make something of myself. I thought i could get a great education from a real college and maybe, just maybe, i could succeed in life. So please, for the sake of me and all of the other kids who are relying on the school for a good education, try not to kick us out. I'm sure quite a few Fresno State Students went to public schools around the area, and i'm sure you know how much of a difference there is between the qualities of education of a public high school and college.

All in all, UHS students really try to avoid college students, to avoid upsetting college students any more than we already have. Please don't judge the entire tree just based off of the few rotten apples that fall into view.

Try meeting some of us, we aren't quite as bad as you think we are.

Just doing some research for my summer class at Cal about young adolescents and collegiates forced to coexist. Just wondering exactly why Fresno State has their UHS on their campus if they're well aware that the student population has had many conflicts and complaints with these "kids". I've skimmed through most of the postings, but have yet to find any SOLID reasoning through this argument. I'm well aware that this article was written in Spring 07, but I'm hoping someone will check up on this once heated controversy. UHS vs Fresno State Student Body. I'd appreciate it if I could hear BOTH SIDES of the story. Thanks.

It is Spring 2008 (this article being published in Spring 2007 - and should be re-published, again).

I concur ... the little curs are an irritation to say the least. How about a split / alternative lunch hour (supervised) for the brats?

Other problems well addressed. For whatever entitlement they have to come to a "University" oriented High School, they are still out of their element. So far this semester, I've seen some of the dumber CSUF students unduly influenced by some of the more street-smart (intelligent) High Schoolers ... while that interaction did not affect me, it proves some interesting points of view, as well as serving as an irritation for what "higher education" is slowly becoming.

I concur ... give the rug rats a corner to play on, away from cars.

Unfortunately, even CSUF students get in the way of cars on a regular basis ... though it be an irritation in and of itself, I bring my bike to campus daily to zip in and out of human, cart, bike, car and University "Police" traffic (one of these days they're gonna pull me over and give me a ration for being irrational and aggressive on my bike w/ out a helmet).

Fact ... the "law" protects pedestrians' "right of way." Ever been to London ... if you're a dumb enough human to put your 100-450 lbs in front of a 4K lbs car ... there are no penalties for the driver who couldn't stop in time for the stupid human (a closer rule of law to natural selection appeals to my sense of being). In some ways, the laws in the United States are meant to protect the stupid at the expense of the unconscious.

So on this point of a High Schooler running out in front of your car, on the legal premise, I say you're wrong ... but on the humanistic side of sense-and-sensibility (rationality, actually), I say run the rug rats over, naturally select who belongs on campus. Hell, run over a few of the CSUF Peds chatting on their cell phones, walking blindly into Crosswalks. Besides, in July it will be illegal for us drivers to hold Cell Phones to our ears while driving ... why shouldn't road-bound peds be bound by the same rules (face the same consequences for the resultant set of infracted distraction policy).

Meh.
$0.02.

I am a UHS student, and I know many CSUF students do not feel comfortable or overjoyed at the fact that they have high school students on their campus. But as far as this argument goes, you cannot base every student off of what you have seen. I admit, there are some very, very reckless students that attend UHS, but most of us are well-behaved young people that just want to get by. It could be said that 1/4 of us don't even want to be there. Our homework load is enormous, we have a huge pressure on us to perform excellently, and we don't get any sleep. We don't need adults acting like teenagers either. Once the school is built there should be no more problems. Until then, please wait patiently.

wow, hot topic eh?

Last post on this topic---------the CSU is focused on the wrong crap. Their mission should not be to provide space for some magnet school. As a fee paying student we should demand more. A library that stays open longer than 10 hours a day--------ID cards that can be attained only by university students------------smaller classes--------less emphasis on intervarsity sports where the system as a whole can't possibly compete on a national stage.

High school students are on campus as a privelege that (in my opinion) should be earned. College students are paying customers whose fees help fund the continued operation of the campus, as well as the construction of facilities like the student union and food court, whcih are used by high school students for, at the most, a fraction of the cost. That is why college students deserve access to the food court and student union.

As far as eating healthy goes, college students are adults who are old enough to make that decision for themselves and accept the consequences. High school students are not.

i think what most of you people just need to TRY to understand and have patience. what's wrong with waiting in line behind 50 UHS students? aren't they humans too? you wouldn't push away a hungry beggar, would you?

The Bucket, not all college stundents are over 21, i'm sure we all know that. i wouldn't be quick to get angry at UHS students for trying to pass before a car. there is a lot of bragging how mature we are but look, HUNDREDS OF CSUF STUDENTS JAYWALK EVERYDAY, they're grown ups shouldn't they know better?! well, SHAME ON THEM.

i think you could've just pointed the things that bothered you but you didn't have to degrade those young students so much. it offends, though i am not a UHS student. i just feel so sorry for them that a lot of college students actually hate them.

oh yes, one last thing i almost forgot to comment.
EATING HEALTHY? give me a break.
look around, thousands of college srudents are overweight but we DESERVE to have taco bell, panda express, etc??

Are you guys still posting here? Get over it. The UHS kids are the least of your problems.

McLane High School puts more high school students on campus than UHS. Last I talked to the people in charge of their program, there were a few hundred of those McLane kids over here.

McLane isn't the only high school sending kids over here, and UHS is by far not the majority.

who's this fake JD impersonating me? get out of here with defending UHS. the school is very, very debacle-ish.

i'm down with greyson. the BS sucks, too.

the library, however, is a good quiet place to nap. it should be open more often.

UHS students are NOT issued the same KeyCards as CSU Fresno students. They also do NOT have the same priviliges with their cards. Their cards are clearly marked University High School as well.

UHS is a debacle. So is Campus Pointe, so is Fresno State's Library, and so are the students who comprise AS.

Too true, too true.

They don't really seem to know, nor care at the fact that walking in front of the cars of already crazy college drivers is not as fun of a dare that they play in their highs school games of truth or dare? Not only that, but the fact that it could possibly be....I don't know....dangerous?

Bravo for highlighting that in your article. Hopefully something can be done to prevent the "Little Rascals" from getting hurt!

what will be the examination date of 2nd professional B.sc nursing

ok, so there is a lot of talk on here but apparently not many people know what they are talking about. UHS students do not take classes there for free. The school is charged based on the number of units in which they are taking, and that is why there are set classes that UHS students take during a semester. Another thing is how many people go though all the other high school programs and are on campus taking classes, to see which are UHS students, and which are not. The young adults that are on campus are usually not apart of UHS, because there are many other high schools that have programs on campus, not just UHS. Yes, there are kids there, and I assure you that they are not the only ones crowing your lines, because they have split lunches so there isn't a huge rush. Yes, they are young still, and some are immature but you should not judge an entire group and an entire school based on the few immature students they have.

that's so right on, "in the front row..."

i told you dorks there were smaaaaht kids out there.

go home to mommy.

They frolic through our campus, eat our food, use our facilities, take our classes, and -- goodness! -- make fun of our newspaper.
And they use every big word they learned at UHS to do it.
Such snobbery, from mostly overpriviledged students who somehow managed to play the flute really well in an audition, should really be pitied. Because how disgustingly pompous will they be when they actually graduate and get into "a better place" for college? I shudder to think.
Luckily, my high school was always the one to beat the pants off these aggressive little things in pretty much everything, so I can puff myself up with pleasant thoughts of defeated pseudo-college students with far too much spending money (REAL college students can't afford to buy food from the USU and Kennel every day, so I guess we really can tell who's still mooching off the 'rents...and YES, blessed little seventeen-year-olds, that most certainly was sarcastic. Don't yell at me for it.)
Perhaps the reason we are most upset, UHS students who won't even let us have our own damn Opinion Pages to voice our own damn opinion in without reading it and getting comically indignant, is that we graduated from high school already. And one of the perks of taking all the AP classes that are "almost" college (because most high schools have us smart kids take those -- rather than inflicting us on whatever local college will baby-sit us as an experiment) and GRADUATING is that we don't have to be in high school anymore -- or around OTHER HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS. Face it -- you guys are extraordinarily obnoxious. Even just walking behind a cluster of seven of you collegiately plodding along to get your Cheetos and Coke and whining about myspace is enough to make me want to transfer schools just because I'm in college now and I'm most certainly entitled to take my Art History 11 and English 193T without the benefit of a self-important high school senior breathing the same expensive college air that I do. Trust me, we were ALL that annoyoing four years ago. But we've done our time and we don't want you guys here to bug us when the only annoying people we should have to deal with are the slacker kids in the GE classes who sleep the whole time (and yes, we hate them too). It's not that I blame UHS students, per se, for being the pain in my own self-important ass. It's just that even the full scholarship I got (without the benefit of University Super-High School's stellar education!) to Fresno State really wouldn't have been enough of a draw to come here, had I known I'd be supporting an institution that mutilates otherwise innocent little fourteen-year-olds and, after a few special Latin classes and some Billiards here and there, turns them into the snotty little brats that keep arguing with us on our own newspaper website. Sheesh. Get over yourselves -- you'll be embarrassed by yourselves in a few years no matter what you do, but posing as wordly walking dictionaries is hardly the way to lessen the burden that is being a teenager.
And Irvine kid, I certainly hope one of those marvelous writing classes is in your academic future -- it might teach you the value of proofreading. Because even a silly little comment that is beneath your attentions (though writing it certainly merited your efforts) is a representation of you, and the mind you're so proud to say was molded by UHS.
I once heard someone say it's "like releasing a bunch of bunnies on campus" to have them on our turf. So, fellow bulldogs, let's make up our minds to just be amused by them, like a free lunch-hour show that's included as a bonus in our tuition fees.

"Well, apparently, somebody forgot to teach you that you use the article “an” before vowel sounds. Also, telling me to stop putting people down in a “lame” attempt to make myself feel better–are you not doing the exact same thing?"

-In a "better" place, I love how you ignored everything I wrote and instead pointed out a typo (sorry sweetie, I did not have time to proof my response). Perhaps it is you, my dear, who needs to take a course (you know, spend your daddy's money wisely) at marvelous UCI on writing a persuasive argument.
Your arrogance continues to disgust me.

Hi Scott-

UHS students are not the Anti-Christ. If you are so angsty about this topic, why not get accepted to a private college somewhere else in the suburbs and roam freely (since you are free to do so) without the high-schoolers? It's amazing how all of you find time to whine on and on about the high school when you're losing brain cells standing behind me in the Taco Bell line imitating your favorite power rangers character (true story kids).

It's also quite... apparent that we have UHS on our campus. If you're going to make yet ***another*** article about that fact, it's recommended that you make it better than the last.

and baxter, i see your point on the education dept. i don't know enough to argue whether UHS benefits fresno state education majors. it's an interesting point. maybe someone else can give some evidence or facts that "in a better place" can pretend don't exist.

and NO, i'm not trying to force anyone to do college the way i did it. if you want to get a scholarship, go 'head. do college however you want. but ask me if i want kids who automatically think they're smarter than me getting ahead by exploiting a university they feel is below them, and why would i be in favor of that?

cause i feel bad that the school in their district isn't very good? nope. according to many, the school in my district wasn't any good, and we had plenty of kids go to UCs, PAC-10s and IVs. if UHS didn't exist, these kids wouldn't die of starvation. they'd still go to school somewhere.

call it you-think-you're-better-than-me syndrome or little-man complex or whatever. but like i said, i feel sorry for truly unfortunate people. not spoiled so-called intellectuals.

there are people at fresno state who tested in the 99th percentiles and played in the band and get good grades and are interested in school. there are more people out there than these kids at UHS think. more than anyone thinks.

as for the state of the collegian. i don't feel it's any worse than when i was there (when we were an honorable mention for national ACP newspaper of the year). in fact, the few times i've seen it in person, it looks better designed.

there is no rivaling the photo staff (or johnny rios) from back when i was bangin', but i don't think the product's any worse. the sports department is a little too homerish for my tastes, but it looks 10 times better — so it's an even trade, i guess.

here's a little sampling of fresno alums vs. UCI alums...

UCI: jon lovitz, t. jefferson parker, some other guy who wrote independence day, the CEO of hot topic, a porn actress and a playboy centerfold.

fresno state: a california supreme court justice, cruz bustamante, bill jones, the owner of patagonia, the CEO of jenny craig, the former CSO of amazon.com, a former new york police commissioner, a senior VP at boeing, the gov. of nevada, a deceased shuttle commander, the CEO of bebe, a former US sec. of treasury.

and for people with sports interests, fresno state has had mutiple olympians in wrestling, gymnastics and softball, as well as professionals in the NFL and MLB, including a former NL most valuable player, an overall #1 NFL draft pick and world series and super bowl winners.

UCI has had no athletes of interest.

my only point with all of that is you can make it wherever you go. it's more about you than anything else. high school kids who think they need to leave the valley because it's beneath them are only ignorant of the history of fresno state and the people who have come out of here.

neyman and baxter should stop fighting. they should make friends — or box to the death!

and i seriously do want evidence of my bad grammar... seriously. it must be very obvious, seeing as how i went to fresno state and everything.

let's get back to the real issue here, where did i make a grammar mistake??!

i dare someone to find even one.

The overall quality of both hard news and opinion writing in the Collegian has steadily declined--heck, the lack of enterprise reporting by staff is striking. Let's put it this way--if I know about news items (like a running gun fight that started in the USU Rec Center) that any decent campus paper should've covered and weren't by the Collegian, then there are big problems. Sure, there have been editors who have had decent standards--but, once they graduate or move on to other endeavors, the quality quickly returns to a D+.

Oops, I meant to post that comment as "Emily" (I recently posted on another Collegian forum as "Cecilia," since I use my first and middle names interchangeably on here). Anyway, just thought I'd clarify.

Benjamin: I wasn't using quotation marks to indicate facetiousness; I was using them in order to convey my disgust at what passes as journalism these days.

However, since I've gathered (through your exchange with Neyman) that you occasionally write for The Collegian, I'll refrain from expressing disgust with the newspaper as a whole, since I have a suspicion that your articles are far superior to Neyman's.

I had no idea you were a Public Relations major. I didn't even try to make the assertion that you were a Public Relations major, and it's just crude luck that you happen to actually be one, apparently. Unless you noticed, the little italicized words aren't under the column in this publication, so I had no idea what department you represented.

That's if I read you correctly, anyway. It's kinda hard to understand what you're getting at. On a side note, Betsy Hays is as nice of a person as everyone says she is. So bubbly.

To respond to your parting shot, I'm actually very proud of that Tetris column. It came out nicely, and it was halfway clever, somewhat interesting and wholly readable. Try it sometime.

And in case you missed the link, I already covered UHS, and a few weeks before you did. I also offered a unique and a -- I no false modesty precludes me -- more insightful perspective. I wasn't first, but I was before you. Unlike this particular edition of this particular column, I at least try to know what I'm talking about before rushing in on half-hearted observations and tired hate rhetoric.

Not every opinion deserves to be heard, and your particular of opinion only serves to drag the newspaper down to the "we'll print anything" college paper. Real newspapers, if trying to be like them is the Collegian's latest pretension, do not print uninformed hash.

Neyman: heated arguments are fine, unless they're directed at your laughable position and defense of it, not to mention whatever integrity this paper had. In this case, the criticism has merit.

Stirring up controversy is fine for the News Media -- as long as the media points to someone else saying it. Not even the most masochistic columnist makes inflammatory statements without attributing them to someone else. He'd lose his job.

Stir up all the controversy you want, but don't point it at yourself -- you'll lose credibility as a mudslinger for the sake thereof. Good thing you are, by your own admission -- "the style in which I write my columns is intended to create controversy and opinion." Just worry the just deserts you face for this twice monthly display of masochistic bravado.

Also, if you don't like what I'm writing, then simply don't read. Get back to me when you find out how well that really works.

Dan: I can't speak for the '80s, but I remember Maurice Ndole's tenure as an editor-in-chief, back when I started the print journalism thing. Was he really that bad?

Emily: I honestly don't try to read most of what JD writes -- I still think he's a troll to some degree or another -- so I missed when he made that bogus assertion. UCI has been consistently lauded as one of the premiere medical, veterinary, and/or agriculture schools for longer than I've been alive.

I was just making the point (now to both parties, I assume) that prestigious alumni come from graduate programs, and so going to a college like that straight out of high school isn't always a no-brainer great idea. Point stands, but mootly.

On a side note, quotations to indicate facetiousness don't quite make you look as smart as you probably are.

Point of clarification to all parties: items on the opinion page are plain ol' opinion columns, or letters to the editor. I might add that both are non-paid, non-credit.

The only benefit is the byline. In some cases, what immediately follows the byline is something columnists shouldn't take credit for. Too bad, because they can't take credit for what immediately precedes it, either.

Articles -- clarifying semantics make me almost deliriously happy -- are everything else in the paper except perhaps the occasional "Staff Report(s)."

As these are not articles, they are not subject to the same levels of scrutiny, even though Dan believes that both levels are set pretty low and have been for a while.

(If I read into it correctly, he specifically means when he was around, but that's nothing but blind, curious conjecture. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In all seriousness, I'm not being obtuse this time -- I really am simply curious.)

This is great, the point was to bring a heated argument, and that is certainly what this is. But I do want to throw in my thoughts at this juncture.

I do realize that Fresno Unified as a whole is a pretty crappy educational system compared to the likes of Clovis and many many other districts. And I do realize that the Kids that attend UHS are very talented in many areas, but that does not take away from the fact that many students that attend CSUF are agitated with the UHS students in general. The obvious fact that they are themselves not college students is a strong point with the paying students that go to the university. But I take nothing away from the education of our nations children for a greater good, I just voiced the matter that the over crowding of the food courts and the general areas in which CSUF students frequent, such as the amp.

lastly, I would also like to point out that Mr. Baxter while I am sure is a good enough man, seems to be disrespecting anyone that posts in this forum, and I for one do not appreciate it. The fact of the matter Mr. Baxter is this.........every person in this country has the right to their opinions, and whether you like it our not, those opinions deserve to be heard. So if you don't like what is being written, then simply do not read!
And as far as that goes, I would not be so quick to judge someone on their intelectual ability for their major. I do understand the basic concepts of Public Relations, and people ACTUALLY pay me for my services in the area. this has nothing to do with PR Mr. Baxter, this has everything to do with getting a voice out in the public forum that could create controversy. And to top it off, I would not be so quick to judge others until you can come up with something a little better than tetris.

Once again, keeps the comments coming, that is the reason I write.

Thanks guys

Mr. Baxter, the fact that there are other schools out there with horrific newspapers doesn't really mean Fresno State's is any better. There are also plenty of colleges/universities with GREAT newspapers.

Also, I think you misunderstood the point In a Better Place was trying to make. (S)he was responding to J.D.'s argument that Fresno State's list of notable alumni is longer/more impressive than U.C. Irvine's. I don't think In a Better Place necessarily believes that individuals who appear on such lists are more noteworthy than nurses, teachers, etc.; rather, (s)he was attempting to point out the inherent fallacy in J.D.'s argument (namely, that Fresno State has a greater number of "impressive" alumni than U.C. Irvine).

Dan, I agree with you; the UHS kids do look better (in this forum) than their older counterparts. Even so, I have a suspicion that the "writers" for The Collegian will continue to print pointless and immature "articles" about University High School. However, you'd think that Scott Neyman would be able to come up with something more interesting to complain about, given that his "column" only appears once every two weeks.

What's your point, Mr. Baxter? The Collegian has gone to hell since the 1980s. It's no longer a daily, first of all. Secondly, more than half its content comes off the AP wire. Either the staff is lazy or there's no staff. No wonder the J-Department wanted nothing to do with the rag when ASI wanted to dump funding it.

The arguments for the prestige of any university are both self-serving and self-fulfilling. If a university says that it's exclusive and selective and has a high tuition, it'll get a lot of applications and can afford to be exclusive and selective.

These days, it doesn't really matter where you go for your undergraduate education, unless you really want to pay premium for a name.

As a rule, prestigious alumni who can really trace their prestige from where they went to college tend to be from the graduate-level work -- where your matriculation's location actually does matter.

Anyone else who happens to attain some sort of prestige would have undoubtedly achieved that prestige no matter where they went for their undergraduate career.

Notable alumni from Fresno State? Most of the Valley's teachers, nurses and public servants. People for whom personal achievement doesn't amount to a Wikipedia mention.

For the record, at least my comments about the ivy league schools UHS alums go to was facetious, as the argument -- as stated -- is wholly irrelevant.

Careful about your own indentation, "In A Better Place." Rambling and ranting is no way to win a contest of literacy, even against JD.

Oh, and Dan? I have no idea who you are -- you see, I don't really care -- but your suggestion that the Collegian has gone totally downhill just makes me laugh. This is why:

http://tinyurl.com/yumw3g

Enjoy it, kids.

A few points...

-Mr. Neyland's column is one of the more insipid comment pieces the Collegian (aka bird cage liner) has printed
-the Collegian has fallen far in journalistic quality since I was on staff
-perhaps the Collegian epitomizes the problems with print media
-the Collegian used to be considered fit only to line bird cages--it's now only fit to help housebreak small companion animals
-the students should be rushing to repeal the "Collegian fee" at the next campus election--they're sure not getting value for their buck
-the whining about UHS affirms the reputation of Fresno State students for suffering from PMS--pissing, moaning and sniveling! They complain about everything
--in this discussion, the UHS kids look better than their older counterparts

*technically

Okay, I have several more responses.

First of all, to the people who continually claim that UHS students think they're above Fresno State and go on to Ivy League schools--only one UHS graduate so far (out of three graduating classes) has gone to an Ivy League. 4/7 of my graduating class went to Fresno State. That, my friends, is more than half. So your suggestion that students go to Fresno State for free and then leave it behind is completely untrue.

Glad I'm not There: "I do know how to write. I earned a MA at Fresno State." Well, apparently, somebody forgot to teach you that you use the article "an" before vowel sounds. Also, telling me to stop putting people down in a "lame" attempt to make myself feel better--are you not doing the exact same thing?

Mr. Neyman--I do applaud you for writing a controversial article. The controversy surrounding it is exactly why I keep returning to this page to see what people have written. So kudos for that. However, you point out that UHS students do still go to The Bucket. However, they are definitely not allowed to--I think the fact that they are never thrown out suggests that they conduct themselves quietly and maturely.

JD: Yes, you do use poor grammar. I'm sorry that it pains you so much to hear it. But you might as well get used to it. If someone points out to me that I'm bad at math, I don't get defensive--it's true. And if you'd read more carefully my comments, you'd see that I very clearly say that I don't think the UCI student population is any better than Fresno State's. I do think our academics are better, however, and that is what leads to the high ranking. As for honoring my request for evidence, no, you didn't give me any. EVIDENCE is support for your argument, which is that UHS is terrible and should disappear. Go to wikipedia, by the way, and check out Fresno State and UCI's notable alumni. The length of UCI's list alone should be indicative of what you'll find. Also, I haven't used any "pretty" words. I've used perfectly ordinary words; I just happen to know how to punctuate. You claim you are not in favor of UHS because it in no way benefits you. Explain to me how you benefit from other students who have work-study, or have financial aid because they can't afford college? What a terrible thing society is becoming if all we are concerned about is how we benefit from it. And lastly, about UCI's University High School--yes, it does have its own campus...technically. If you ever visit UCI, however, you will see that there are many departments that are not technicaly on UCI's property, just like University High School. And I believe your problem with UHS is not that it does not have its own campus, but rather that you are forced to interact with the students. I interact every day with UCI's University High students, and like I said, they act no more immaturely or maturely than college students.

TO JD:

You have been quite a troll, whether you admit it or not, even back on the original Collegian forum. I won't bother citing any examples, as you were already one of the most prolific commentors.

To address your surprisingly valid point -- which as stated most recently would, by the way, run much better in the Collegian twice a month than Neyman's futile grasps at legitimacy -- these students are from all across the area. Several of them would otherwise be stuck in schools where they wouldn't receive half the opportunities or learning.

The space they take up -- the seats in classrooms, even the portables -- is space Fresno State students aren't using. Period.

UHS kids can only enter classes with vacant seats, for one, and the space the portables take up is negligible. If you disagree, don't take classes in the Lab School or live in the dorms and see how little you walk by their campus.

UHS provides a lab school for the Kremen School of Education. Fresno State has always been a teacher's school, ever since its 1911 founding as Fresno Normal School, and having a high school on-campus can and will provide unique opportunities for Kremen students. At least, once Fresno State students stop badmouthing UHS and vice versa.

I don't really buy the "they keep prices down" bit -- food prices have only gone up lately -- but if it's that big of a deal, don't go to the Student Union during peak hours. It'd be packed between noon and 1 p.m. even without the UHS students, so work or schedule classes during that time. Have lunch a little later or earlier than usual -- no big deal.

Do you really want to inflict your experience on these kids? Working through college is far from pleasant and, by taking classes Fresno State students aren't, they're a step further to earning their own education, albeit through scholarships.

UHS isn't a feeder school, but Valley graduates with a shot at leaving aren't going to stick around Fresno State, anyway. Let UHS classes here so at least 100 graduates every year have something good to say about us at all, rather than dismissing their local school as "just Fresno State."

Only the bad eggs are going to try to sit proudly above you in your own classes. I've known several of them, sure, but they've all been regular-admission students.

UHS gives Fresno State a good name any time it performs well anywhere, just by association. It's as much an advertisement for the good standing of our university as athletics, at least the ones not televised or with misappropriated funds.

How many times will we be cited as having this pilot program in academic journals, any time alternative high schools are discussed? Who knows?

How many UHS alums will go on to their ivy league schools with some iota of appreciation for that other college they took classes at?

As long as Fresno State students keep trashing them, I don't see any reason why any of them would.

But if we can provide a worthwhile, enriching experience for these students, maybe they'll throw in a good word for us in that old boy network their Yale, or Harvard, MIT or Stanford has.

When they make their first billion, maybe they'll throw us a pittance. That argument is too speculative, though. Who cares about that hypothetical trust fund, besides Welty's gold-lined pockets?

Giving these kids a chance to experience something not Title-I-tastic is more than enough for me.

I leave you with this: Other than the fervor of defending your alma mater you have, and those scant four or six years of tuition, what do you provide to the university? Even if you can answer that satisfactorily -- I doubt it -- what do most students provide their alma mater?

What do any students give back to their place of learning?

Just by being an excellent high school associated with the college, UHS already gives more back to the university than half of our graduates.

Mr. Neyman, although you don't say it outwardly, you seem to subscribe to the single falsest fallacy of Public Relations -- any press is good exposure.

More egregiously, you seem to subscribe to it's corollary -- any discussion is good discussion.

You are allowed to have your opinion, but somehow making it more valid through disseminating such outward, thoughtless hate is hardly ethical. That's a Public Relations lesson I'd rather you learned.

Even worse, giving print to hate has always somehow made them more valid. Your column this week has undoubtedly reinforced the irrational and detrimental opinions of countless uninformed readers. Thanks.

And while racists and bigots of all kinds have the right to free speech and expression of their thought, that doesn't make them any less bigoted and thoughtless. Chew on that.

scott, your column style isn't effective; it's offensive. haha.

nothing personal. but yeah, keep cranking out the stinkers and wether i agree with you or not (this time i do, barely), i'll try to say something interesting.

and benjamin baxter, i thought your column in favor of tolerance for the uhs kids was great. all the columns of yours i've read are good. know this about me: i don't know much, but i know enough to know i'm not smart — and don't pretend to be.

but i have opinions and stand up for them. insult me for that or don't. i don't care.

no, tolerant csuf student, i don't think i'm SOOOO important.

here's who i represent: csuf students who worked hard at real world jobs since high school and throughout college to pay their own tuition and rent without the help of the taxpayers or mommy and daddy.

i didn't have scholarships. i didn't have grants. i didn't get loans. and i didn't burden my parents.

i loaded trucks and worked in wearhouses, sweated it out in kitchens and bought my own car. i lived in a shit hole and ate sandwiches.

i truly paid for the privilege to go to college, got myself an education, got outstanding grades and i appreciate the opportunity.

so am i offended when a bunch of kids get for free what i paid my hard-earned money for and act as if they are naturally above me due to their vast intellect? yes, i am.

combine all that with the fact that they are on the campus, taking up space that belongs much more to the paying customers.

if uhs doesn't benefit me (not really me, geniuses, but ALL FRESNO STATE STUDENTS), then why would i be in favor of it?

weigh the positives. weigh the negatives. use logic. the only reason any fresno state students have to support uhs is out of charity. and i don't feel very charitable toward snobs. sorry.

what do you think they would tell newt gingrich if he got in the welfare line?

Take some pictures of them the next time you see them, Scott, because I'm in there every once in a while and I've never seen any. I think they're a lot less excited about Fresno State hangouts than you'd like to imagine. Especially the ones who have been on this campus as long (and in some cases, longer) than we have.

Oh, forgot something. While UHS students cannot go into the bucket, they still do guys.

WOW.
Really, I would like to point out a couple of key issues here for you folks.

1. the style in which I write my columns is intended to create controversy and opinion(Hence the open ended questions and the lack of a formal argument on my behalf.

2. I write about, and will continue to write about issues that I hear brought up everyday to ensure that these issues are talked about and kept in the light. Yes, there are many Students that hate UHS and there are students like Mr. Baxter that do not, but those are personal opinions and those individuals are allowed to have them.

3. I am not a serious journalist by any means, nor do I want that to be a future career, I write because I feel that I should and becuase I want to.

4. Creating controversy is the name of my game for this column, and by the 30 comments thus far and the students(both CSUF and UHS) that have taken the time out of their day to talk with me on the matter, I would say that my "style" is very effective.

5. Keep the hits coming JD, I'm a big boy and I can take it. Plus, they are usually pretty entertaining.

Thanks to all that have commented, keep up with my amazingly hated column every other wednesday.

You know 'Glad I'm not there', it seems to me that your main issue with 'In A Better Place' is the fact that the points in that responce are supported by facts and you think that you are the best thing ever because you have an MA. Just to inform you, having a degree just means that you can pass tests, it doesn't mean any more that that and studies have proven it. As far as the problems that Fresno State students have with UHS go, it seems to me that you all have major ego problems; in the sense that you cannot cope with the fact that high school students attend school at the same place you do. Well just get over it; do you think we like going home with five hours of homework each night and rarely getting a good nights sleep?
One thing that I have noticed in some of these responses here is the language, some of you who are supposed to be collage students and above us high school students have to resort to swear words because you do not posses the vocabulary which would enable you to say what you want to say in a civil manner. Another key observation, the UHS students and alumni who have responded to the article have, in my opinion, written far more eloquent response as compared to the rants and ravings of collage students at Fresno State.
As far as the "snooty" UHS students go I want to make clear that the Fresno State students sound rather full of themselves here.
In defense of my school: UHS is the best, it rocks.

Oh, and pay no attention to JD, there. Like every Web-centric troll, it thinks it'll grow balls of brass by pretending to be smart or by sounding self-important online.

Mike Greyson, were you a student at University High School?

No?

Then how can you say it "sucks?"

I'm a Fresno State student and I know the high-schoolers can be frustrating, but seriously, get over yourself. It sounds like you're jealous of those kids.

And JD: University High School wasn't created in order to benefit Fresno State, so stop arguing that it doesn't do any good for YOU personally. It's not supposed to. The world does not revolve around you.

I have absolutely no problem with these high school students. Yeah, they can be rowdy, and yes, their school isn't attractive. But the last time I checked, the students who attend the school aren't responsible for fixing that. And their administration appears to be trying to, based on some of the articles that appeared in The Collegian last year.

Most of them seem to be reasonably nice, intelligent students. I had some of them in a Latin class last semester, and they knew their stuff. Furthermore, they had better attendance than most of my fellow college students.

They don't pay for classes because the School of Arts and Humanities of Fresno State wants them to be allowed to attend some of them free of charge. That's NOT these kids' fault, and it's not hurting you personally. Fresno State students still take precedence over the high school students when it comes to enrolling in classes, and it's not like that many of them even take classes at Fresno State with the college students.

I found this stuff out by actually TALKING to some UHS students in my class last semester and treating them like intelligent young people that they are. And you know the most interesting part? Most of us didn't know they were high schoolers until we overheard one of them say something about an AP class.

University High School is one of the better things about Fresno State, and I'd like them to know that not all of us are against them. Those of us who don't have jealousy issues and aren't intolerant of people a few years younger than ourselves seem to be okay with them.

I'm shocked and appalled that a fellow contributor could have such a pointedly stupid argument. Rehashing old stereotypes that are no stranger to students at either school is neither clever nor insightful, and it only hurts both groups in the end.

Not all of us are against UHS, any of you UHS students who read these comments.

http://collegian.csufresno.edu/archive/2007/02/...

Congrats on almost beating out Edison at the academic decathlon, by the way.

UHS is not going to be a problem for any Fresno State students once they move to their permanent facilities, but for now, you college-age delinquents can stop holding UHS to a higher standard than you hold yourself.

I've known many, many more Fresno State students who are louder and more rude, obnoxious and -- worse than any of these -- stupid than the high schoolers I see every week as a substitute teacher.

Good students acknowledge their own failings before they start trashing anyone else's. To that aim, we sure have a lot of bad students in this thread.

Bad form. For shame.

Oh yes, In A Better Place, I do know how to write. I earned a MA at Fresno State. However, I'm sure that means little to you (i.e. the my school is better than yours logic).
Since you are receiving a "much better" education than I received at Fresno State, I thought you would be able to read this thread and figure out what I meant by enforcing stereotypes. Here are two for your enjoyment. Perhaps you will be able to figure out the rest.
Stereotype 1
Most UHS students think Fresno State is not worth their time. Therefore, they end up going to so-called "BETTER" schools.
Stereotype 2
Most UHS students are snobby and arrogant.

You wrote:
"...that gives me one more reason to be grateful that I attend U.C. Irvine with mature college students..."

"...yes, I think I am in a better place–not specifically because my school is more highly ranked than Fresno State, but because I think after spending four years on Fresno State’s campus (and having spent much of my childhood there, since my father is an endowed chair in the Creative Writing department), it was time to move on. Furthermore, given the kind of responses that people have posted regarding this controversial article, I can’t really claim to feel I’ve missed out on meeting any amazing or pleasant people."

"Try comparing your grades in your various classes to the grades of UHS students in those same classes; I’d be very surprised if yours are higher."

"...unless it has taken you a very long time to complete your coursework in college, which wouldn’t necessarily be a surprise."

Shall I go on? Your writing reeks of arrogance and self-importance. You are EXACTLY what many Fresno State students think most UHS students are like. Do yourself and your fellow UHS students a favor and stop putting other people down in an lame attempt to prove a point.

I think the matter has been settled. UHS sucks, is a total debacle, and fee-paying Fresno St. students (adults) should not have to experience the misfortune of attending school with these rascals. Close UHS's doors after the 06-07 academic year. It's bad enough I once had an upper-level class in a trailer. Utter and unequivocal debacle!!!

hahaha. in a better place, i like how you completely ignore how i moded you on the irvine university high topic — you ignore it — and claim i used "poor grammar."

you are a bitchy snob. and i don't need "evidence" for that because it is an opinion. you want to change my mind, then go ahead and try.

you don't want to acknowledge what i said? fine, ignore it if it makes you feel better. i have friends who have gone to davis, ucla, stanford, usc, fresno state and other csus. and i will tell you this, success has some to do with "ranking of your school" but more to do with the individual student.

you're not a better student than someone who can only afford to go to fresno state, but outworks your ass and gets a better job than you after graduating.

i'll put fresno state's list of notable alumni and athletes up against UCI's. you should too. then come back and talk trash.

why should i honor your request for "evidence"? i gave it you you and you ignored it.

this is the question that nobody has an answer for about uhs: how does it benefit fresno state students? their measly lunch money? hahaha. pshhh... please.

all uhs is — is a headache. their graduates are ignorant know-it-alls that see bad grammar where it doesn't exist and ignore the truth when put in front of their faces.

pretty words aren't always the best or smartest words. i communicate to the masses, not just to a bunch of high-brow, pinky-pointing tea-sippers. believe me, i could do what you do. i just do what i do better.

Glad I'm Not There: How have I enforced every stereotype mentioned in the above responses? Could you please actually back up your comment with some evidence? I'm sure in some of your classes you've been forced to write argumentative papers--they're called argumentative because you ARGUE your point and SUPPORT it with EVIDENCE. What stereotypes am I conforming to?

I have to reply to Glad I'm Not There. I did not realize that the USU was limited strictly to CSUF students. Perhaps you ought to set up a tollbooth for all those peach blossom elementary school students if that is truly the case. I was under the opinion it was open to the public, but if I am misinformed as to that, please feel free to correct me,. After all, I have no desire to be just another ignorant student.

"In every single department except music, U.C. Irvine is ranked more highly than CSU Fresno. So excuse me for remaining convinced that my school is better."
---You're not helping your cause, former UHS student. You just enforced every UHS stereotype posted on this forum.

This is very simple, folks. If you want the college experience, then PAY FOR IT.
Do you want to attend a college course? PAY FOR IT. Do you want to use the library? PAY FOR IT. Do you want to use the USU? PAY FOR IT.
It makes no sense not to enforce a fee of some sort. Fresno State students have to do this every semester.

Hmm...I seem to have struck a nerve.

Firstly, allow me to say, yes, I think I am in a better place--not specifically because my school is more highly ranked than Fresno State, but because I think after spending four years on Fresno State's campus (and having spent much of my childhood there, since my father is an endowed chair in the Creative Writing department), it was time to move on. Furthermore, given the kind of responses that people have posted regarding this controversial article, I can't really claim to feel I've missed out on meeting any amazing or pleasant people.

In addition, in case you weren't aware of this, although I see someone else has pointed it out, at least one third of every graduating class of UHS has ended up going to Fresno State. That's a minimum of one third. I'd say that's a pretty good indication that UHS students have positive feelings towards Fresno State.

JD: Firstly, please explain how you are smart enough to stand up to my moronic self? All you did was mention that I'm "snooty" and that I go to "UC Podunk." Surely you're not asinine enough to think that this constitutes a relevant argument. I have to admit, I think Mr. Neyman did a better job of arguing that UHS is a debacle than you did. As I explain in the earlier paragraph, my name "In a better place" does not imply that I think I'm better than you--perhaps that is you projecting your own poor sense of self-worth onto my neutral words. By all means, stand up to me and provide me with a relevant argument. I think your poor grammar and completely impertinent claims are doing more justice to my argument than yours, but I'd certainly enjoy reading a well-written, logical explanation regarding why UHS is such a nuisance.

Mr. Greyson: "let's examine the stats on that?" Let's. In every single department except music, U.C. Irvine is ranked more highly than CSU Fresno. So excuse me for remaining convinced that my school is better. (I might also point out that I am not condemning people for going to Fresno State or suggesting that the student population itself is inferior in any way to UCI's...) Also, do you realize how childish it is to point out that UHS students' parents are "extra-large?" Maybe you've been taught that ad hominem arguments are worth contributing, but trust me, few people would agree with that.

So, Mr. Greyson, JD, and others who share Mr. Neyman's sentiments: by all means continue hating UHS. But I'd recommend coming up with a decent argument in regards to why you hate UHS, rather than merely calling people who defend UHS with logical arguments "snooty" and a "smarty-pants." I'm afraid such childish name-calling just doesn't cut it.

In the spirit of getting the facts correct, about a third of University High School students from each of the graduating classes so far are currently attending Fresno State. It doesn't make any sense to argue that none of them actually decide to go there.

Mr. Neyman brings up several important points about University High School that I would like to take a moment out of my homework to respond to.
Firstly, Mr. Neyman states that he had to wait in line between fifty high school students to obtain his lunch. I am surprised that about 13% of my school would line up for one specific meal. I must wonder, if it had been fifty CSUF students, about .25% of his school, were in line if he would have found it so terribly inconvenient. Because my mother taught me better than to insult the wisdom of an elder, I will only imply that perhaps it his stomach, not mine, which drove the focus of the article.
I also have to question what he classifies as the “Free Speech Area.” Does he mean the area outside the UHS trailers and the amphitheater where roughly 75% of UHS students eat daily? For he could not possibly mean the area near the fraternity and sorority booths, as that area is hardly convenient to finishing homework and sitting to eat.
Mr. Neyman, I must say I know that it is physically impossible for me to run faster than your car. In fact, I am fairly certain that it would be just as impossible for a college student to out run your car. Although, my view may be wrong, as I only have half a brain. What I find strange is that a collegian reporter claims he knows quite clearly the state of my medical health. However, perhaps one who has a full brain has talents that I could hardly imagine. And, next time you feel like “accidentally” running over anyone, either a UHS or a CSUF student, I would have to advise that your parents remind you that homicide is still an offense for which you can be prosecuted.
The “social privilege” of attending Fresno State is one not lost on me, although I must say, I attend UHS more for the academic privilege of enhancing myself. Actually, I wonder if those students who decry the intellectual maturity of UHS students in the classroom have ever had, in fact, a UHS student in their classroom. I am sure I have missed meeting many of them in my Latin classes, but perhaps they attended a different one than I did. I understand that this is a college experience, and in turn, I treat it as such, arriving on time for each class, taking notes, and staying the full time. I sometimes have found myself wondering where my older, paying counterparts are. As I realize their education must be foremost on their minds, I can only hope that they recover from this epidemic that seems to clear up only at the time of finals, so that they are able to get their money’s worth of education. As a last few words, I would like to offer to Mr. Neyman that next time he sees me in his class, I would be more than willing to discuss this further with him, provided he, like many other college males is not attempting to obtain my phone number. I am, after all, a minor.

look, see how snooty these UHS kids are?! they go off to UC Podunk and come back talking trash about how mature they are and crap.

they think they are proving their point, but they are only proving mine, which is: THEY'RE USING YOU, FRESNO STATE.

they are chewing you up and spitting you out — all the while believing in their souls they have some birthright to attend classes with you.

they're too good to actually PAY go to fresno state. eww, gross!

but they'll go there for free, take up space, sap parking, pretend to play volleyball and stick their noses up in the air all at the same time.

"i don't normally read this low-class CSU excuse for a campus paper, but my superior UC intellect forced me to respond to you heathens stupid enough to reside in fresno... "

look at the name! "in a better place"??? read: i'm better than you and always have been.

why don't YOU check your facts, smarty pants. University High School in Irvine is not on-campus. it's adjacent to the university, and it is a real high school, with its own buildings and an athletic program.

it's not a failed UCI project with a bunch of band geeks that pretend their in big boy college. it was the first high school established in irvine, and it's got its own 50 acre plot with a theater, swimming pool and tennis courts.

the only athletic activity fresno state's uhs students ever take part in... is running out of nachos.

while neyman's poor excuse for a column was a pretty weak attack on uhs, don't think there aren't people smart enough to stand up to you morons.

fresno state, send these kids back to the playground already. let them play "baby geniuses" at their regular high schools where they can get bullied.

they don't really want to go to fresno state anyway. they want to go to stanford and ucla. why does fresno state need to help them get there?

Did I mention that UHS is a debacle and is of absolutely no value to Fresno State students? If some of these UHS students did actually go on to attend CSU Fresno, that would be a different story entirely. They look down upon Fresno State students, take full advantage of the few perks we actually do receive, and go onto what they believe are bigger and better places once finished. (Lets actually examine the stats on that). And they have extra-large parents who drop them off and pick them up in extra large vehicles. I once saw a parent yell to an older (fresno state) student trying to cross at a crosswalk. UHS is a debacle and students should have rioted if more campus land was used to expand the high school.

Normally, I have better things to do in my spare time than peruse the pages of Fresno State’s impressive periodical The Collegian. However, as a current U.C. Irvine sophomore, and one who owes her college success to the stellar education she received at UHS, I was motivated to read and respond to Mr. Neyman’s fallible and grammatically unique article.

To begin with, not all UHS students eat at the same time, and many of them bring their own lunches or eat outside. My university is similar in size to Fresno State, and I assure you that 50 high school students would make no difference in the long lines at various food courts around campus. Yes, waiting in lines is annoying—but if they bother you that much, you should have elected to go to a small private school.

I recommend checking your facts before publishing an article—you may not be aware of this, Mr. Neyman, but publishing faulty facts can be considered a criminal offense. UHS’s population is “growing.” The school grants admission to a very small number of students each year. The number does not increase; UHS always has the same number of students “running around” on campus.

To correct another implication you make in your article, as far as I know, UHS has never issued any statements suggesting it is concerned with its students’ health. I’m not even certain where you came up with this argument or how you consider it to be relevant, but needless to say, UHS is just as preoccupied with what students eat as Fresno State is concerned about what you eat. Also, another incorrect statement: UHS students are not allowed in The Bucket.

Do you honestly think anybody in the world thinks he or she can outrun a car? What a silly comment to make. I might also point out that college students everywhere are just as likely to cross in the face of oncoming traffic. I myself have had several instances where I have almost run over a Fresno State student who chose to run across Shaw as I was making a left turn.

To address an issue brought up by somebody else—UHS students do not have the same ID cards as Fresno State students. Look at one of those cards. They say University High School on them. And they do not guarantee all the same privileges.

I would also like to point out the immature jealousy that seems to have prompted many responses to Mr. Neyman’s letter? Is the fact that UHS students do not have to pay for the same resources that you do truly so offensive? Yes, college is a privilege; I now pay to attend a college campus. But I find it childish to care how much other people have to pay.

Now, the point I find most offensive—the suggestion that UHS students are poorly behaved and too ignorant to take college classes. I took fourteen Fresno State classes in the four years I was a UHS student. In my three English classes (English 20, 30, and 193T), my Art History class (Art History 11), French classes (1A, 1B, 2A), and Latin classes (131T, twice), I was one of the top-scoring students. In many of these classes, there were other UHS students, as well, and not one of them was loud or obnoxious, and all of them worked very hard. Why don’t you ask some of your professors who have had UHS students what they think? Because UHS students are high school students, they have more to prove, and work very hard in their college classes. Try comparing your grades in your various classes to the grades of UHS students in those same classes; I’d be very surprised if yours are higher.

I can also say that even as a high school student, I was appalled by some of the immaturity college students I had previously looked up to displayed. One student in my English 30 class, for example, took the trouble to photoshop a picture of the professor kissing John Kerry and post it on the door to the classroom. You make think that college students behaving immaturely are the “exception,” but this is not true. Who do you think spills things all the time in the Student Union? There are more of you than high school students; I can guarantee you that you cause more of a mess. Also, stop acting as though you are so much more mature than high school students. Let’s not forget, it hasn’t been that long since you were in high school—unless it has taken you a very long time to complete your coursework in college, which wouldn’t necessarily be a surprise.

As a somewhat unimportant point, but one I still feel deserves addressing: yes, the tuition that you pay certainly has a far larger impact on the university’s budget. But who has ever wanted less money? UHS students do contribute a lot to your school’s revenue. Yes, not as much as you do in paying tuition. But they certainly add a lot. Clarify for me why this is a problem.

Lastly, I recommend getting over your academic insecurities and accepting that UHS is there to stay. There is also a University High School on my campus, and frankly, I have absolutely no problems with those high school students. If Mr. Neyman and the students who painstakingly responded with their brilliantly-reasoned and worded responses are the caliber of students currently attending Fresno State, all I can say is, that gives me one more reason to be grateful that I attend U.C. Irvine with mature college students and high school students alike.

If this is how college students behave, then I consider myself fortunate to be a senior in high school.

I don't usually read The Collegian, but I do attend University High school, meaning that I obviously don't have "half a brain," to quote the estimable Mr. Neyman. Ergo, reading is obviously a rather tricky activity for me, so I occasionally pick up The Collegian in order to work on my reading skills, since polysyllabic words are rarely found in it.

For the first time, I can honestly say that I learned a thing or two from Mr. Neyman's "column;" namely, that my school is concerned about what its students eat (for the past three and a half years, I've been laboring under the impression that UHS is far more concerned about academics than about the eating habits of its student body), but, as they say, "Live and learn." I also learned that UHS students regularly "fraternize with the fraternal organizations" on Fresno State's campus. I confess that I find it odd that Fresno State students would bother "fraternizing" with high school students who apparently stick out like sore thumbs, but I'm willing to humor Mr. Neyman on this one. However, as long as I'm humoring him, I expect some invites to those frat parties, please and thank you.

On a more serious note, I understand a lot of Fresno State students' qualms about UHS. I know, I know, we aren't paying (individually, at least) to use the facilities CSUF students have to pay for, and occasionally, Fresno State students come across a UHS student or two (in some cases, several) in their college classes.

However, let's look at both sides of the issue. Throughout the four years I've attended UHS, I've taken several Fresno State classes. The overwhelming majority of the college students in these classes lacked motivation, appeared to care very little about anything besides passing the classes (mind you, some of the students didn't even seem overly concerned about that), and frankly, a lot of these allegedly "mature adults" were just as obnoxious, if not more so, than the most obnoxious students I've had in some of my classes at University High.

At my school, however, the number of students who lack initiative and misbehave in class certainly doesn't constitute a majority. I'm not the only one who feels this way. A number of Fresno State professors regularly voice their support for University High School, and some of them think so highly of the UHS students they've taught that they've even created academic scholarship awards for some of the graduating seniors.

Face it, a number of immature teenagers attend
University High School, but for the most part, those aren't the ones Fresno State students will find in their classes. Don't the college students ever wonder why they usually don't have anything to say about the older UHS students (the 17 and 18-year-old ones)? That, my friends, is because a lot of us don't advertise the fact that we're in high school, and much as Fresno State students might claim otherwise, it can be difficult to differentiate between seniors in high school and freshmen in college. Particularly when those seniors are often more mature than the college freshmen.

Think twice before employing sweeping generalizations, Mr. Neyman. Successful journalists tend to avoid them. And while I'm offering unsolicited advice, I might as well advise you to check your facts more carefully in the future.

i'm as little a fan as anyone is for USU, but this is a very poorly thought out column.

well in all fairness, I doubt many of these kids actually WANT to go to UHS.

It's really not their fault they are in high school. That's already a really strange time in someone's life - we can all relate to this.

It's bad enough they're at this age at all, but on top of it they have to deal with a bunch of pissed-off college students who think they're God's gift to the CSU system because they pay overpriced student fees. I say we're the chumps.

Let's all get over ourselves. They really are annoying, but it's pretty sad when everyone gets fired up because the Taco Bell line is out of control. Geez.

Now wasting time on MySpace in the USU when we need to get something done... That's not cool.

But really, I think the whole school only has about 80 students per grade. Maybe it's increased over the years but where else are they supposed to go at lunch?

It just seems like there are better things to worry about.

please, are you trying to tell me that without the money spent from those little bastards, the library would not be getting revamped?? the money mommy and daddy give them is not even close to the amount that would be needed to keep our establishments from closing. and I am positive that more actual college students would eat at the USU if those kids were not in there playing around all the dam time(that is why I go into the pub) You sir, are defending idiots that need to find their own school.

Hey everybody. Mike has a good point here. I'm sure Panda Express, Round Table and the book store would all pretty quickly go out of business without the money that the UHS (Unnecessary Hassle to the real Students) kids put into them. Plus there's no way the university would have been able to put together that library project without the 3 bucks all those kids are dropping on quesadillas every day. Oh wait, that's sarcasm. Nice try Mike.

I would like to inform Scott Neyman and everyone else of some true facts about UHS before someone writes another article for the Collegian on the subject.
First off, to address Mr. Neyman's concern with there being a high school on the campus; UHS is a project for the college of Humanities. So wouldn't it make sense that the location would be within close proximity of the school?
Second, one of the main things which makes UHS so special is that we do take college classes whether they are geared for UHS students or the class has Fresno State students, it is one of the key features of the cirriculum.
To address the touching concern over our healthy eating habits, we are not allowed in the Bucket. Further more, without the money that the UHS students pay into food services such as the snack bar and Taco Bell the revenue for the USU would not be as much as it is, so in that respect UHS is actually helping Fresno State by creating bussiness for them; not to mention all of the mechandise that is bought from the bookstore on a daily basis by UHS students. Without the added income from UHS student spending there wouldn't be as much money for University improvements such as the Library and various other repains that are made to the buildings around campus.
I would also like to address the issue about the crosswalks, granted some may not look when they cross, but there are many cars that do not stop for the pedestrian and "'accidentally' run them over."
So, in closing, just as a suggestion to the author of this article, before you write an article trashing UHS again at least do some more research to insure that the article isn't just a complaint letter to the University.

What was weirder for me was taking a night class last semester where, for some reason, there were kids from HOOVER high school in my class. A bunch of them. These people were CHILDREN, little bitty ones. I wasy paying an incredible 1600 bucks to take THREE measley classes and one of them was filled with little monsters.

Mai,

I must correct you on a number of counts. First and foremost, the VERY IMPORTANT and concerning issue of ID cards. Often when Fresno State students are attempting to get men's basketball tickets, their cards are not scanned. It's a free for all. Why should the extra activity money in my tuition go to give these youngsters an out-of-class experience at the expense of my fellow CSU Fresno students?

Second, the matter of respect. I don't care why or how these kids were given the change they were to attend 'semi-college.' They contribute little to the betterment of the actual university population. They suck up resources that my fellow students have contributed and just to piss all over them afterwards. How many UHS students actually go on to become Fresno State students? I'd wager very few.

Next, the issue of behavior. If UHS students are actually attending the same classes as Fresno St. students (that is a total shock and whoever made that particular decision should be forever shamed and FS students picketing everyday until the end of time) then there is absolutely no excuse for childish acting out.

Lastly, the issue of the amphitheatre. If any current Fresno State campus land, no matter how crummy---other than the current UHS location--- is expanded for the sake of UHS, FS students need to revolt! That Twisted Sister song comes to mind.

Did I mention that UHS is a total debacle?

I'm surprised more Fresno State students are not voicing their opinions about this topic. I was most upset about the UHU students using facilities that I was forced to pay for. If they want the college experience, they should have to pay SOMETHING. Also, I was in two courses that had UHU students. These kids were loud, rude, and immature. A prof shouldn't be forced to stop a class every 20 min. in order to remind her students how to act (this was so bad that even the prof complained about it).
A simple solution would be to segregate UHU students from PAYING college students. Let them have their own "recess" and lunch area. They shouldn't be hanging out with college students, anyway.
Yes, I understand that teens act a certain way. They can be annoying and rude. I get it. However, I shouldn't have to put up these kids, ESPECIALLY when they're not paying the same fees as I am. Why should Fresno State students be forced to pay a fee to use the USU when UHS students can use it for free? Maybe if they had to pay what Fresno State students pay, they would be more respectful.
The admin. of Fresno State should care about what their paying students think about this subject. It seems like the bigwigs like Welty don't care what the paying students think. Fresno State students - be loud about this issue! It's your campus! Get it back!

I'm sure we've all heard the cliche, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." C'mon kids. Apparently you've been allowed to attend school on a college campus because somehow you've been deemed "special". Play the part and act as if you belong. Let's not let their age exempt them from conforming to the norms of a college environment. Sure, some college students act silly as well, but that, for the most part, is the exceptioin rather than the rule. I'd say it is otherwise with the UHS students. I can't blame them for causing a delay with everybody's lunch hour though. Everyone has to eat. But in this instance, the term act your age should not apply.

We all know that some or most college students are tired of the UHS students. There are many misconceptions of these students. Number one, the ID cards are the same as California ID cards. Just because a person has a CA ID card doesn't mean they can drive. Just like the UHS ID card, it does not give them any privilege as regular full-time college students. So don't worry about this issue. Number two, did we all forget these are adolescents? Come on now, we have to expect them to act the way they do because of who they are. And let us not forget also, many college students still act like adolescents. So who are we to hate or despise these kids when this situation is similar to life situations. And lastly, these kids were chosen to for a reason, lets at least respect that.

Did the Collegian do a follow-up on the identical ID cards that our administration issued to these kids?

I usually pay close attention but saw nothing in the weeks that followed that front page story (2005, I believe). That was an absolute outrage.

Giving kids who not only don't pay tuition fees but who are also not of college age similar ID cards to the ones issued to college-aged, high school graduate, paying CSUF university students? Essentially allowing them to aquire benefits and on campus services that are supposedly exclusive rights of the university population.

The outrage should be even greater if this is still the case.

UHS sucks. Will we ever be able to rid our adult campus of these hotheads?